Logan Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Hey Guru. How fast is the damage with sulfer? I cant see 1 tank bad causing the damage 'this week' kind of thing. I would think that alot of the gauge damage was really caused 4-6 weeks ago. So the current 900 claims would be bogus. It would be more like 20x. Or 19,000-30,000 cars involved. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Per our discussion of sulfur in fuel and it's effect on fuel level senders...and concern over fuel level senders failing with "normal" amounts of sulfur in the fuel... I was surprised to read the following article in USA today. It seems ironic after the comments I made.... Sulfur in Gasoline Shell, Texaco Shuts 500 Stations NEW ORLEANS May 28, 2004; Alan Sayre writing for the AP reported that just before the heavy-driving Memorial Day weekend, more than 500 Shell and Texaco stations in the South have stopped selling gasoline because of high sulfur levels that can ruin vehicle fuel gauges and make an empty tank appear full. The damage done by the bad gasoline could cause some drivers to run out of gas unexpectedly. Also, car owners may have to replace their fuel gauges -- a repair job that can easily cost $400 to $600. The tainted gasoline originated at the Motiva Enterprises refinery in Norco, La., according to Shell Oil Co. Motiva is the refining arm of Shell in the East and South. Motiva supplied the gasoline to both Shell and Texaco. The refinery said it is investigating how the high sulfur levels occurred. Sulfur is naturally present in crude oil; some of it is supposed to be removed during refining. As of Friday, 119 Shell and Texaco stations were closed in the New Orleans area, and 400 were not selling fuel in Florida, said Shell spokeswoman Helen Bow. The problem occurred at an especially bad time for gasoline stations, which had been expecting brisk sales, at high prices, ahead of the holiday weekend. "The pumps have been off since Wednesday," said Sri Guntaka, a cashier at a Shell station in New Orleans. "We've lost a lot of customers, hundreds of them. It's very bad." Gas tanks have a float ball that rises and falls with the fuel level. An electrical system reads the float ball's level and transmits the information to the dashboard fuel gauge. The system uses silver electrical contacts, which can be quickly corroded by sulfur. The problem came to light this week after drivers began complaining about inaccurate fuel gauge readings. Besides the New Orleans area, problem fuel turned up in shipments to Miami, Tampa, Sarasota and Fort Lauderdale, Shell said. Shell is replacing the gasoline at its stations. But Bow did not have an estimate of when all the stations would be pumping again. Don Redman, a spokesman for Louisiana AAA, said that before the shutdown was announced, he fielded several calls from the auto club's members complaining that their gas readings were way off. "People have been looking at their odometers because of the high prices and saying, `Hey, wait a minute,'" Redman said. Shell said it had received 1,800 queries and 825 claims from people who said their fuel gauges had been affected. Mark Hebert, who lives in Luling, said he filled up at a Shell station on Monday, and 200 miles of driving later, the gauge on his 2002 Impala still read full. "I just know it has to be between a quarter and a half full at this point," said Hebert, who submitted a claim to Shell and planned to take his car in next week for a replacement gauge. Guy Valvis, owner of an auto repair shop in Metairie, said he normally handles about two gauge replacements a year. "I've fixed three or four here in the last week, and I've got two in here right now," he said Friday. Valvis said the repair job entails draining the fuel and removing the gas tank. I hope whoever has a damaged vehicle from this sues the living crap out of the oil companies and their refineries. Vehicles represent a major financial investment for people who NEVER recoupe the value of their car once sold. These oil companies should be held responsible for the damages they have caused to these vehicles. Not only do people get stuck with horrendous repair bills, they lose the use of their vehicle during the repair and sometimes lose financially because of having to take time off from work when the repairs are done. SUE THEM!!! If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 I also suspect someone had this old fuel laying around and tried to get rid of it, incognito, and at a huge profit, and they got caught, quick. SUE!!!!! If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msilva954 Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 The damage is the worst down here in Miami....seeing that just about half of our stations are those. There was a whole report on TV the other day. And now that this has happened at the distribution center our prices are going even higher at the regular stations w/ diffrent suppliers. I think this is some sort of trick...just to make us pay even more then we have been, just another reason why I buy only Chevron when I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAUL T Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Yea, go ahead and sue, then watch your gas prices go up to $4.00 a gallon. The only people who make out in this kind of suit is the lawyers. The people get to foot the bill of the court cost. I say file a claim, have your gauge fixed and go on with life. Sueing is not the answer unless the company does not fix your gauge. It is like proclaiming war before sitting down and negotciating. We had a similar situation in Ohio & West Virginia where the fuel filters and injectors were being clogged by Marathon gas. Marathon went way out of there way to provide info and a claim service to repair the damage. No, I do not have any stock in any oil companies, I just think we ought to give them a chance to redeem themselves before we start the law suits. We are human, we make mistakes. Current claims would be low until the word gets out and people start filing. I do not think your car value will diminish because a maintenance item was repaired or replaced. Get real people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Yea, go ahead and sue, then watch your gas prices go up to $4.00 a gallon. The only people who make out in this kind of suit is the lawyers. The people get to foot the bill of the court cost. I say file a claim, have your gauge fixed and go on with life. Sueing is not the answer unless the company does not fix your gauge. It is like proclaiming war before sitting down and negotciating....I do not think your car value will diminish because a maintenance item was repaired or replaced. Get real people. Amen, brother. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Yea, go ahead and sue, then watch your gas prices go up to $4.00 a gallon. The only people who make out in this kind of suit is the lawyers. The people get to foot the bill of the court cost. I say file a claim, have your gauge fixed and go on with life. Sueing is not the answer unless the company does not fix your gauge. It is like proclaiming war before sitting down and negotciating. We had a similar situation in Ohio & West Virginia where the fuel filters and injectors were being clogged by Marathon gas. Marathon went way out of there way to provide info and a claim service to repair the damage. No, I do not have any stock in any oil companies, I just think we ought to give them a chance to redeem themselves before we start the law suits. We are human, we make mistakes. Current claims would be low until the word gets out and people start filing. I do not think your car value will diminish because a maintenance item was repaired or replaced. Get real people. Assuming the gas companies make good on the claims and pay for the repairs, there would be no need to sue. So it's up to the gas companies as to how they handle the situation. The ball is in their court. I also don't believe for one minute that this situation has anything to do with being human and making mistakes. This looks like simple human greed to me. If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 I also just mentioned this to a friend who said it's plainly just another way to jack up prices by reducing the amount of gas available to the public. Nice move, oil companies!! And perfectly timed too!!! If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justgreat Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 couple of items: from what i have read and heard regarding our gas supply and the possiblity of shortages, a signigicant (don't know if it's a majority) amount of our gas is imported these days...not the crude, but the refined product. also, in this same vein of the thread, back in the mid ninties when bmw first imported their current generation of v-8 engines, the motors were self-destructioning in a few thousand miles of use. these were all aluminum (heads and block without cast iron sleaves). when the motors were torn down and analyzed for the root cause, bmw said it was due to high-sulphur content in the gas that the american market was using...obviously, there's no way to know for certain if that was the case, but, the in line sixes, which were cast iron block at the time, didn't have any kind of meltdown problems like the v-8's. jackg 90seville 94k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 couple of items: from what i have read and heard regarding our gas supply and the possiblity of shortages, a signigicant (don't know if it's a majority) amount of our gas is imported these days...not the crude, but the refined product. also, in this same vein of the thread, back in the mid ninties when bmw first imported their current generation of v-8 engines, the motors were self-destructioning in a few thousand miles of use. these were all aluminum (heads and block without cast iron sleaves). when the motors were torn down and analyzed for the root cause, bmw said it was due to high-sulphur content in the gas that the american market was using...obviously, there's no way to know for certain if that was the case, but, the in line sixes, which were cast iron block at the time, didn't have any kind of meltdown problems like the v-8's. jackg 90seville 94k What I can't figure out is this: If there's such a shortage of crude that we are experiencing price increases as they claim, then why are we pumping OUR Alaska crude and selling it overseas? Wouldn't it make more sense to refine and sell it here in America, after all, it is OUR oil AND, we need it. The answer is simple. The oil companies are seeing an opportunity to make money, literally coming and going on this fake oil shortage nonsense. Currently, federal taxes on gas equal 23.4% of the total price at the pump. This amount fluctuates month to month depending on the market. It was slightly higher last month (24%) and the figures for May won't be out until the beginning of June. I'd be curious to know how much more profits the feds are pulling down from this fiasco as well. If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 So, who do you want to sue? The car makers for not making a gas gauge that will withstand sulfur in fuel? I don't see the oil companies totally at fault here, especially until we see where the gas came from and why the substance is in there. But I'm a little biased as many of you know. We all get two choices here, no gas or more expensive gas. What happens if there is no exceedance of the astm spec? This looks like it may be some really wierd crude or finished product being brought in from somewhere, some unusual source so that refiners can keep up with demand during the current shortfall of crude supply. And as some of you have apparently noticed, it is not limited to one geographic area of the country. But, they are all apparently supplied via the gulf. Has anyone heard if there is one particular car maker that is more affected than another? What happens if it is? The Oil for Food program supplied Oil to countries that have a high demand, and that source has been taken away by the war in Iraq...the shortfalls need to be made up somehow. Removing that source might be forcing oil companies to purchase product that they would normally avoid. It could fall a little short on some specs that would be well tolerated in most cars.....sorta like a compromise. Maybe, instead of using silver in the fuel gauges, they should use gold, like in a Lexus maybe? At least it wouldn't corrode. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 couple of items: from what i have read and heard regarding our gas supply and the possiblity of shortages, a signigicant (don't know if it's a majority) amount of our gas is imported these days...not the crude, but the refined product. also, in this same vein of the thread, back in the mid ninties when bmw first imported their current generation of v-8 engines, the motors were self-destructioning in a few thousand miles of use. these were all aluminum (heads and block without cast iron sleaves). when the motors were torn down and analyzed for the root cause, bmw said it was due to high-sulphur content in the gas that the american market was using...obviously, there's no way to know for certain if that was the case, but, the in line sixes, which were cast iron block at the time, didn't have any kind of meltdown problems like the v-8's. jackg 90seville 94k So, Justgreat, who fixed the engines at that time? The oil companies or BMW? Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 The first thing I thought of with high suphur content is not the engine (although the sulphur acid / oil bath can't be too good) but it was the platinum in the cat-con. The following link relates to diesels, but sulphur in sufficient quanties, can do a number on gasoline cat-cons also. http://www.platinum.matthey.com/media_room/1055843102.html Anyone care to replace their caddy's cat-con because it failed tests or plugged ? (best to have a cardio-pulmonary team on stand by...) Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justgreat Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 yeah...the bmw v8's that self destructed were all aluminum...no cast iron sleaves...as far as the high sulphur content goes, i seem to recall that the culprit was oil imported from venezuela (sp?)...now, back then...i don't think the gasoline was imported...i believe it was refined here. but, maybe if the crude has high sulphur then the refined product also will have high concentrations. jackg 90 seville 94k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJ Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 . . . Guess BMW and MErc owners take better care of their motors than Vega owners did....or didn't...!!! . . . Wait, wait, wait. I'm not going to shoulder the blame here. I had a new '73 Vega and was told it would burn oil at 50,000 so I took extrordinary care of it. Regardless of my efforts it started burning oil at 50,000 just like all the others. So are you saying there was something I could have done to prevent it wearing out back then? What would that have been? Obviously GM lost faith with that process as they replaced the engine with the "Iron Duke" which was a wonderful engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justgreat Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 when the bmw motors started to self destruct, bmw maintained that the high sulphur gas that the american market used was the culprit...according to them, the euro market cars didn't have a problem with the lower sulphur gas....from my point of view, bmw was still the final culprit: they didn't do enough research on using a new product (new to our market anyway) and just assumed that it would be fine. i point this out because there was some initial resistance by bmw to stand behind their product...gee what a surprise...jack 90seville 94k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Thanks for bringing up the Vega engine. I woke up this morning ( I apparently do most of my thinking while I'm sleeping) and realized the Vega engine was also all aluminum. My brother used to be a GM mechanic at that time and told me that he was the only one in the shop certified to "reapply" the cylinder wall finish and silicone coating on the cylinder walls. I don't know what they used to this day! But the outcome of this post is pretty positive from my point of view. In fact, it may be a good subject for a poll. Keep in mind that the fuel MAY have been within ASTM specs (tolerances) in all cases. Also keep in mind that Lexus builds their fuel sending units with gold plated wires (I didn't make that up) to avoid this problem. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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