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O.K.; new winter; same old problem; why won't my car start???


UKcat

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On really cold mornings; my car will not start. When I turn the key over; all I get is a clicking sound; it acts like the battery is dead, but it is not. It is almost as if something is not making a connection; it's as if there is no power to the battery or charger at all . This happened last winter also, and we never did figure out what was happening!!!

The car has power; electrical stuff inside works, but the car will not start. We have to jump it almost every cold morning. After that, it will start right up the rest of the day. This has been mind-boggling, to say the least.

We bought a new battery last year; changed the starter; changed some relays; nothing makes any difference.

Are we missing something????? This is getting really old. Cold mornings is no time to have to jump-start my car every day!!!

My "other car"

100_05472.jpg

1968 Pontiac GTO, 400, 4 speed, 366 h.p., matching numbers car

*Get well soon, John Force!!!*

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This solution might not fit your problem but it only takes a few minutes and costs zero dollars.

Remove the bolt that connects the battery ground cable to the chassis. Clean up the bolt threads and the bottom surface of the shoulder at the bolt head. Hit the threads in the chassis nut block with some contact cleaner. Run the bolt in and out a few times. Clean up both surfaces of the cable end connector. Put it all back together and see if that improves the situation.

And it is possible to get a bad battery right off the store shelf. It might be worth having your battery load-tested.

Jim

Drive your car.

Use your cell phone.

CHOOSE ONE !

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You might also check the electrical connection to the PRNDL switch on top of the transmission. Sometimes, the contacts get corroded and the ECM thinks the car is not in Park or Neutral and will not allow the car to start.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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If you have or have ever had corrosion on the cable, don't overlook the possibility of corrosion under the cable insulation. Hard to see, but will wreak havoc.

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I remember talking to you about this last year.

What relays did you replace? There is a starter relay (green) near the PCM on the LF wheel well, but that has to do with the PASS system and would cut power to the solenoid, you probably would not get clicking.

As others have said, this certainly seems to be a battery problem, it is odd that you would be able to start with a jump and it NOT be a battery. Make sure its the proper cold cranking amps (CCA).

I found this:

Starting your car in cold weather can be a big problem.

1. Gasoline must be vaporized to burn and it evaporates slowly in the cold. (Sometimes people spray ether into their engines to get them started - ether evaporates faster than gasoline in cold weather.)

2. Cold oil gets stiff - making it harder for engine parts to move (a block heater can warm up the engine block), and

3. Chemical reactions in cold batteries are slower so the battery produces fewer electrons - making it too weak for the starter motor.

That said, IF, you battery is fine, if you have creeping corrosion in your battery cables as Ranger mentioned, that could raise the resistance that the battery sees and the battery is not capable of turning the starter with such resistance, its like putting a resistor in the line especially in the cold: see this chart for a graphic display of how the cold raises the resistance, the chart comes from the is in the GM SI manual. Can you park it in a warm area one night? If you can, and it starts?, change your battery cables (NOT a fun job in this car) when you take the old ones off, check to see if you have creeping corrosion in them, the copper turns dark and corrosion white and green has grown like a cancer. Take a good look at your positive cable near the battery under the insulation as Ranger noted.

TempvsResistance.jpg

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

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Here is some more interesting stuff:

Once moisture finds an opening, it can creep underneath the insulation and corrode the copper wire far away from the point of intrusion. Extensive corrosion can severely reduce the circuit's ability to support the load, causing dangerous heat buildup, and even total load failure. Breaks in the wire insulation, which allow moisture to enter, can happen in many ways

When you turn your car off, grab the positive and negative cables and see if they are warm/hot.

Bruce, I want a raise! :lol:

Diagnosing Corroded or Malfunctioning Cables and Wiring Using the "Voltage Drop" Method:

[Motor Magazine Mar 04] Measuring the resistance from one end of the cable (the battery) to the other end (the starter) will not reveal a problem. That's because your Digital MultiMeter places an almost unmeasurable load on the cable when it measures its resistance. Because the load is so small, the DMM will show a very low resistance reading, as long as even just a few of the strands in the battery cable are still good. The DMM can't tell the difference between a good cable and a bad one with this test. What's needed is a test that will reveal the cable's performance when it's in operation and under a load. To test the negative battery cable, attach the DMM's negative lead to the negative battery terminal. Don't attach it to the terminal clamp; we want to test the whole circuit from end to end. Attach the positive DMM lead to the starter motor body or the engine block. Set the DMM to the 0-40 volt DC scale, then have an assistant crank the engine while you watch the DMM display. Any voltage reading shown represents the voltage that has been dropped between the battery and the starter motor. Typically, a ground cable that's in good condition will drop .1 volt or less. Don't accept a voltage drop that's greater than .3 volt. A cable that's causing starting problems may be dropping far more than even these modest amounts. Voltage drops may occur at any point in a circuit. It may not be practical to replace all of the suspect wiring, so it will be necessary to pinpoint exactly where the voltage drop is occurring. It's relatively easy with something like a battery cable because there are only a few joints or connections in the circuit. If there's a voltage drop, the likely suspects are the cable itself or the terminals at each end. Cleaning the connections and replacing the cable should take care of the problem.

When a circuit is longer and more complicated than a battery cable, save time and keep your diagnosis focused by using the split half method. Divide the circuit in half, then perform a voltage drop test on one half at a time. Find a convenient connector somewhere in the middle of the circuit to mark your halfway point. Conduct a voltage drop test on the front half of the circuit while it's under load. If no significant voltage drop is found, move to the rear half of the circuit, then retest. Keep dividing the remaining segments of the circuit in half until you've narrowed it down and have conclusively located the voltage drop. Many circuits on today's vehicles are designed to carry very low voltage and amperage. Ohm's Law reminds us that any added resistance in these circuits will have a direct effect on their ability to perform as designed. Voltage drops measured in tenths or even hundredths of a volt can be significant and will cause problems.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

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The above information that I posted was the result of Ranger setting the wheels spinning in my brain. When I was working for Chase Manhattan in the early 80s, they used to have 'brainstorming' sessons (I hated them) they only lasted a few months as it was unproductive. But, brainstorming occurs because of the type of environment we are in, each of us posts ideas, solutions, tips, thoughts and we build on them. I conclusively believe now that your problem is your cables and Ranger will reimburse you if its not your problem, for getting me going :lol:

Check your cables,

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you may also try putting a washer between the +/- cables and the battery. The bolt holes in the new battery may not be deep enough for you to get a really good bite, I had the same problem 2 months back when I replaced mine, this fixed it

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If you have or have ever had corrosion on the cable, don't overlook the possibility of corrosion under the cable insulation. Hard to see, but will wreak havoc.

I have a question. Does the starter on UKCat's car have the old type solenoid on it?I have had problems with the big copper washer "INSIDE" the solenoid before. The big copper washer gets burn spots on it and then corrodes on the burnt spots. It may be possible that this is a contributing factor in the cold start problem.

ie.... cold weather = less CCA. Corroded copper contact washer in soleniod = higher resistance which equals no crank when cold until the jumper battery is applied which gives it enough juice to go ahead and kick the solenoid in and engage the starter.

Just a thought....

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I had almost same problem, found out that the wires on the remote positive terminal under the red cover on the fuse/relay box were just loose enough to not have a solid connection when cold. Mine happened when a tech worked on a rear window and disconnected the battery there so he could sit on the seat when working.

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Good morning guys; thanks for all of the ideas; we had already checked the cables at the battery, ground and positive connection at the relay box to make sure they were good and tight; don't know about corrosion and such, but it sounds like it just might be an answer. It just makes no sense to us. The really weird thing is that once it is jump-started in the morning, it will start o.k. the rest of the day. It starts instantly; no dragging, hesitation, etc. . It just will not start in the mornings!

My "other car"

100_05472.jpg

1968 Pontiac GTO, 400, 4 speed, 366 h.p., matching numbers car

*Get well soon, John Force!!!*

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If you have or have ever had corrosion on the cable, don't overlook the possibility of corrosion under the cable insulation. Hard to see, but will wreak havoc.

I have a question. Does the starter on UKCat's car have the old type solenoid on it?I have had problems with the big copper washer "INSIDE" the solenoid before. The big copper washer gets burn spots on it and then corrodes on the burnt spots. It may be possible that this is a contributing factor in the cold start problem.

ie.... cold weather = less CCA. Corroded copper contact washer in soleniod = higher resistance which equals no crank when cold until the jumper battery is applied which gives it enough juice to go ahead and kick the solenoid in and engage the starter.

Just a thought....

He replaced the starter

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Good morning guys; thanks for all of the ideas; we had already checked the cables at the battery, ground and positive connection at the relay box to make sure they were good and tight; don't know about corrosion and such, but it sounds like it just might be an answer. It just makes no sense to us. The really weird thing is that once it is jump-started in the morning, it will start o.k. the rest of the day. It starts instantly; no dragging, hesitation, etc. . It just will not start in the mornings!

This is a very weird problem. There is a procedure in the manual to diagnose a no start condition with clicking, I will post it later. It involves the INJA & B relays.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Once i had this issue with a BMW of a friend.

Turns out the battery was drained by an aftermarket alarm system LED.

It could survive trough the day but completely drained the battery overnight.

It was one of those led's which start blinking the moment the car is switched off.

Turned out the LED was causing a short and draining the battery quicker then it should.

Not saying this is your problem but merely want you to think about power suckers which are not installed off factory (think aftermarket radio's/amp's/handsfree phone's/navigation and all that crap)

Good luck

Marc.

If you are in complete control..... you are not going fast enough....

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Once i had this issue with a BMW of a friend.

Turns out the battery was drained by an aftermarket alarm system LED.

It could survive trough the day but completely drained the battery overnight.

It was one of those led's which start blinking the moment the car is switched off.

Turned out the LED was causing a short and draining the battery quicker then it should.

Not saying this is your problem but merely want you to think about power suckers which are not installed off factory (think aftermarket radio's/amp's/handsfree phone's/navigation and all that crap)

Good luck

Marc.

Very good point. Parasitic drain of some sort. That can be checked easily. The PCM is suppose to go to sleep (I think) after a certain time and the retained power circuts are suppose to shut off. Some one will post the procedure but it involves putting a voltmeter between the negative cable and the battery to see if you have a drain occuring with the KEY off. let it sit for awhile so that all circuits that are suppose to shut down, shut down. An after market amp is a good idea Marc one that is not being triggered to shut off. It is odd however that this parasitic drain would only happen in very cold weather, I guess its related to the info I posted above due to the cold. This one really bugs me

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Well it is quite common for a battery to deliver less power when it's cold. most battery's fail around the first few days of winter (you can ask your autoclub/road side assistance!)

the LED i'm talking about should be able to burn for 20 years if not more on a full car battery if connected correctly, this one managed to drain it in an overnight just because of wrong installation.

But yes, Mike i agree that the best option for the moment is to hook up a multimeter in AMP mode between the battery and the cable just to see if something is still pulling power. even the slightest drain could potentially cause this issue.

If you are in complete control..... you are not going fast enough....

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Very true.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Well; I have not been on the forum for a few days; the weather has warmed up here since then; NO PROBLEM!!!! It still seems to me that it has the effect of metal shrinking when it is cold; like something that is not making a good connection somewhere to begin with and then pulling away just enough so as not to be connected well enough to create a good strong spark.

Don't know..............just speculating.............now if I could get my other half off the couch and in the garage long enough to look for the things you fellas have suggested; maybe we could solve this problem!!!

You would think that having to jump-start the darn thing every cold morning would be an incentive to try to fix it when it is not so cold, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Sorry.............just frustrated today.........................

My "other car"

100_05472.jpg

1968 Pontiac GTO, 400, 4 speed, 366 h.p., matching numbers car

*Get well soon, John Force!!!*

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Also; something else I don't understand about this crazy issue..........why dosen't the car put up a diagnostic code of some sort when this happens?????

My "other car"

100_05472.jpg

1968 Pontiac GTO, 400, 4 speed, 366 h.p., matching numbers car

*Get well soon, John Force!!!*

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The 'better half' oh sorry, 'other half' is a couch potato huh? :lol:

Odd that this does not happen when its warm out. I would have the 'other half' use a voltmeter's amp function to see if you have a drain with all power in the car OFF.. everything. If any drain remains, begin pulling fuses one by one till the drain stops, and you will know the circuit that is causing the problem.

A slow drain will not set a code, I am surprised you are not getting a code from the battery being dead when this occurs though.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I don;t guess you could call him a couch potato; he does auto body work/painting for a living; says that when he gets home; the last thing he wants to do is work on a car; maybe if I crunched my car up; I could get him to work on the mechanical issues while he is fixing the body parts!!!

My "other car"

100_05472.jpg

1968 Pontiac GTO, 400, 4 speed, 366 h.p., matching numbers car

*Get well soon, John Force!!!*

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The 'better half' oh sorry, 'other half' is a couch potato huh? :lol:

Odd that this does not happen when its warm out. I would have the 'other half' use a voltmeter's amp function to see if you have a drain with all power in the car OFF.. everything. If any drain remains, begin pulling fuses one by one till the drain stops, and you will know the circuit that is causing the problem.

A slow drain will not set a code, I am surprised you are not getting a code from the battery being dead when this occurs though.

That is another thing I don't understand; the battery is not "dead". When I turn the key on; all of the things inside that come "on" at that point work fine........lights, radio, heat/air, dash info, etc. The only thing that dosen't work is whatever it is that keeps the car from starting!!!!

My "other car"

100_05472.jpg

1968 Pontiac GTO, 400, 4 speed, 366 h.p., matching numbers car

*Get well soon, John Force!!!*

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The 'better half' oh sorry, 'other half' is a couch potato huh? :lol:

Odd that this does not happen when its warm out. I would have the 'other half' use a voltmeter's amp function to see if you have a drain with all power in the car OFF.. everything. If any drain remains, begin pulling fuses one by one till the drain stops, and you will know the circuit that is causing the problem.

A slow drain will not set a code, I am surprised you are not getting a code from the battery being dead when this occurs though.

That is another thing I don't understand; the battery is not "dead". When I turn the key on; all of the things inside that come "on" at that point work fine........lights, radio, heat/air, dash info, etc. The only thing that dosen't work is whatever it is that keeps the car from starting!!!!

I need to think about this one and look at the schematics

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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After rereading this thread, it seems to me like case of not being able to see the forest through the trees. This sounds like a dead battery. The fact that it starts fine all day long and is dead in the morning seems obvious to me that the battery is being drained overnight. Have your husband put a 12v test lamp between the battery cable and the battery post. If it is lit, you have a drain. Start pulling fuses till it goes out. Then you will know what circuit has the problem and we can help you more from there.

If a drain turns out not to be the problem, then the battery is bad and will not hold a charge. Don't rule that out just because it is "only" a year old. I have had batteries fail in 6 months. I've even had bad ones right off the shelf.

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