BigCat83 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 IMO a huge contributor to the problems described is the Flat Rate Payment system employed at all stealerships. Of course mechanic competence is also another issue, however I would look at Flat Rate first and foremost. As an exercise ask the "Service Manager" at Mynat "What is the Flat Rate time for timeserting a Northstar v-8"? I think you're impression will be that the Flat Rate time isn't nearly enough to do the job properly and from that certain other assumptions can be made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 i did a little digging on timeserts. the hole should be .200" deeper than the insert itself. is a bigsert designed for fixing a botched timesert? i think the timesert is 1-5/16" long or close to that. how deep is the stock threaded bolthole in the block? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 At the risk of pointing out and repeating the obvious, this board is an OUTSTANDING resource. What a shame that a Cadillac dealer badmouths a timesert repair when it's very apparent that a proper repair results in a better-than-new block. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 i did a little digging on timeserts. the hole should be .200" deeper than the insert itself. is a bigsert designed for fixing a botched timesert? i think the timesert is 1-5/16" long or close to that. how deep is the stock threaded bolthole in the block? The critical dimension is from the block deck surface to the counterbore ledge. That is what locates the insert in the block. The .200" is just to provided adequate clearance for the installation tool which must be run all the way through to lock the insert in place. The Timesert is about 1-3/16" long and the Big-Sert is an oversized Timesert to fix a botched Timesert. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 Kevin, it's time for an update. You should be finished drilling and tapping and inserting by now. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2006 Well,.......not much of an update. I had access to some Timeserts that are inbetween the 1st generation Timeserts and the Bigserts but the holes wouldn't clean up enough to provide 100% thread engagement so I ordered the Bigsert kit today.....$478.00 for the kit, 20 inserts and shipping..... The parts are in transit and should arrive mid next week. The Bigsert kit should be here by the end of next week and that's when the fun will begin. I will be out of town Tuesday through Thursday of next week...I hate it when work gets in the way... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonie77 Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 I came in on this late but I have to ask why you didn't drop the cradle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 I came in on this late but I have to ask why you didn't drop the cradle? There are several reasons for a "do it your self" person to pull a N* from the top. 1. It can be done without discharging the A/C. 2. Most people have room to pull an engine from the top, but they don't have the vertical room to drop the cradle. 3. For those with limited floor space, once the cradle is dropped, the car cannot be easily moved out of the way. 4. Dropping the cradle affects the alignment. 5. Pulling from the top eliminates having to disconnect the steering and brake lines. Which in turn eliminates having to bleed the brakes and reassemble the steering shaft. There are probably many more reasons, but this list was sufficient to convince me to pull mine from the top. Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 One more, the tranny supports itself One more, engine cranes are readily available Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonie77 Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 OK, I've done 3 (at home) dropping the cradle. I would agree with points 1 & 3 only. I'm not criticizing, just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 I didn't have a hoist so I figured I had to pull just the engine from the top as the manual only listed two methods: Preferred - remove powertrain from the bottom. Alternate: remove engine from the top. I am interested in your method of removing the powertrain from the bottom in the garage. Do you use an engine hoist to raise the car body from the front? If so, where do you use for the lift points? All the parts are in - including the Big-Sert kit and I repaired 5 out of the 20 holes last night. Tonight, I'll repair 10 more and finish the remaining 5 tomorrow - at least that's the plan. I want the Loctite to cure at least overnight before using the newly repaired holes to retain the drill fixture plate. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdictas Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 Kevin, What grade of loctite do they give you with the kit? I'd love to see some pics of the bigserts installed. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonie77 Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 I used a 4x4 cut to size under the radiator support. Wrapped a tow strap around them and used that to lift the body high enough to slide the powertrain out. Left the struts attached so the alignment did not change. The calipers and ABS stayed on the car. I did not seperate anything in the brake hydraulic system. It didn't require any more height than pulling the engine. It also eliminated all the work of seperating the engine/trans (unless you want to do lower seal). The steering column seperates from the cradle with one pinch bolt. A little awkward to get to but not that hard. The cradle rolled out with a floor jack front and rear. The cradle served as the engine stand to do the timeserting. The biggest drawback for some people is the AC being opened but don't you do AC work? I'm in AZ so I learned AC a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 Interesting, what did you lift with? This is the method that Mark used see this job here http://www.markonemtg.com/marks99sts/id6.html Here is the photo of him lifting the body Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonie77 Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 Basically the same. I went inside the engine compartment to the rad support to lift. I didn't want to pull the bumper cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 zonie77, how difficult was this method? Are you a mechanic by trade or a DIY? Did the tail end hit the ground when you tilted it up? Where the rear wheels free to roll to allow the body to center itself as it came up and as it went down? While the head gasket job was done did the car stay up? Sorry for the questions, in the eventuality of having to do this one day I am weighing the pros and cons of each approach. I kind of like dropping the carriage as you can have access to much more and have more room. When I do this job I want to replace as much as possible. Even if I drop the carriage, I would still detach the engine and tranny to replace the converter, rear pipes, transaxle driveshaft seals, maybe even the case half (OMG)... Thanks for your input Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonie77 Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 I thought it was much easier than pulling only the engine. I documented the first time here. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadil...ket-repair.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 I thought it was much easier than pulling only the engine. I documented the first time here. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadil...ket-repair.html Thanks I will check it out, Mike Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted May 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2006 Kevin, What grade of loctite do they give you with the kit? I'd love to see some pics of the bigserts installed. Chuck Loctite 266 was in the kit - it is the thick, red, permanent grade. I finished inserting the block Saturday afternoon and let the Loctite cure yesterday. This evening, I will re-install the heads and hopefully, get the timing chains installed if there is enough time. There is not much to see of the inserts once they're installed but I'll take some anyway as I am documenting the whole process. I know for a fact that the butcher that botched the first Timesert job freehanded the drill - the hole depths have a range of .125". When I machined each hole using the drill plate and bushing, the centerline mismatch between the botched holes and the holes properly machined could be seen... I used a 4x4 cut to size under the radiator support. Wrapped a tow strap around them and used that to lift the body high enough to slide the powertrain out. Left the struts attached so the alignment did not change. The calipers and ABS stayed on the car. I did not seperate anything in the brake hydraulic system. It didn't require any more height than pulling the engine. It also eliminated all the work of seperating the engine/trans (unless you want to do lower seal). The steering column seperates from the cradle with one pinch bolt. A little awkward to get to but not that hard. The cradle rolled out with a floor jack front and rear. The cradle served as the engine stand to do the timeserting. The biggest drawback for some people is the AC being opened but don't you do AC work? I'm in AZ so I learned AC a long time ago. That's the method I figured you used. If I ever need to do this job again , I might try that method. I have all the equipment for A/C service so recharging isn't a problem - it's just one more task to do. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdictas Posted May 1, 2006 Report Share Posted May 1, 2006 Kevin, It looks like the Timesert manufacturer selected the right loctite grade Below are a couple of links regarding loctite 266 that maybe of interest to some of you. http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/266-EN.pdf http://www.type2.com/library/chemicals/loctite.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonie77 Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Kevin, how is it going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeal1892 Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Kevin, What grade of loctite do they give you with the kit? I'd love to see some pics of the bigserts installed. Chuck Loctite 266 was in the kit - it is the thick, red, permanent grade. I finished inserting the block Saturday afternoon and let the Loctite cure yesterday. This evening, I will re-install the heads and hopefully, get the timing chains installed if there is enough time. There is not much to see of the inserts once they're installed but I'll take some anyway as I am documenting the whole process. I know for a fact that the butcher that botched the first Timesert job freehanded the drill - the hole depths have a range of .125". When I machined each hole using the drill plate and bushing, the centerline mismatch between the botched holes and the holes properly machined could be seen... I used a 4x4 cut to size under the radiator support. Wrapped a tow strap around them and used that to lift the body high enough to slide the powertrain out. Left the struts attached so the alignment did not change. The calipers and ABS stayed on the car. I did not seperate anything in the brake hydraulic system. It didn't require any more height than pulling the engine. It also eliminated all the work of seperating the engine/trans (unless you want to do lower seal). The steering column seperates from the cradle with one pinch bolt. A little awkward to get to but not that hard. The cradle rolled out with a floor jack front and rear. The cradle served as the engine stand to do the timeserting. The biggest drawback for some people is the AC being opened but don't you do AC work? I'm in AZ so I learned AC a long time ago. That's the method I figured you used. If I ever need to do this job again , I might try that method. I have all the equipment for A/C service so recharging isn't a problem - it's just one more task to do. Kevin, I hate that they botched that engine up like that! If I were the owner I would have went to my attorny over it! This work had no 12mile/12 month warrenty ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted May 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 I finished installing the Bigserts Saturday afternoon and was out of town Sunday. I started to install the head alignment dowels and they were too loose in the block. When Bigserts are used, special head alignment dowels must be used that have a larger diameter (that inserts into the block). The kit had two dowels and I needed four.....I called Timesert and they wanted $38 for two dowels with overnight delivery... I thought that was a ripoff so I measured the dowels from the kit and a machinist at work made them for me yesterday at noon. They worked perfectly. When I started working on it last night, I ran into another obstacle...There were not any 6mm bolts in the headgasket kits - only 11mm bolts. My initial thought is that the small 6mm bolts in the timing cover area are to be reused as they just have a regular torque spec (no angle) and there did not appear to be any Loctite on the threads. The service manual states "Install 10 new 11mm bolts and 3 6mm bolts" My thought was also if new 6mm bolts were to be used, the book would have stated, "Install 10 new 11mm bolts and 3 new 6mm bolts" but I dod not want to assume that. I'll solve the bolt mystery today and be back on track this evening. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 Sounds like you are moving along Kevin. Its amazing how much time solving the hurdles takes. As you know I'm using the boston struts, today I have to cut off the extra wing and modify the brake hose bracket to fit... Ill bet that most of that cost was for the overnight shipping...LOL Keep up the good work.. Mike Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonie77 Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 The second time you do a job it usually takes half the time. Maybe it just seems that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.