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Otten33

Cadillac Deville crank but no start

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51 minutes ago, Otten33 said:

I check the fuses when we first started this process a month ago, but maybe now they crapped out or blew.

But again, it wouldnt run at all.  You said, you hear it, right?

Are you sure, its not the level compressor?

Have someone turn on the key and listen to the pump.

We need a fuel pump diagnostic tree, we need a voltage test.   

I am beginning to hate this type of diagnostics, I feel like I am running in circles.

Let me say something here we are only as good as you.

Diagnosis needs focus this is an inverted cone methodology. When we eliminate an item we don't keep going back to it. To continue to reinvent the wheel is not efficient. To be checking a fuse at this point in the game and wondering if it has power is illogical. That is the first thing that I knock off my list does it or does it not have power.

Do you have a volt ohm meter?

 


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I guess it could be the compressor.  I forgot that it even had electronic leveling suspension.  Did the BASE devilles have that?  I thought that was just on the DHS and DTS.  Maybe that is what I have been hearing is the suspension and not the pump.  The old pump had to have power otherwise how was I getting 38 PSI at the fuel rails.  All those times of releasing pressure and then priming the system and it would go back to 38 PSI.  It wasn't till it only went to 30 PSI that we concluded that it must be the pump.  I just meant that maybe it tripped the fuse or the relay just went bad and that is why the new pump is not working.  Is that not possible?  Sorry for the confusion.  I have a multimeter but am just learning on how to use it.  Am i checking for volts or ohms or both?  Where would I place my probes?  

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96, 98 and 99 had it.  I would be surprised if you didnt have it.   Get under the rear of the car and look at the shocks, see if you have rubber ballasts at the top and a thin nylon pressure hose connected to it.

But we dont even need to go there.  Put you hand and ear on the pump when someone turns the key on.  The fuel pump and level compressor make different noise one a hum and one a compressor.

If it runs at all the fuse is good.

Did you pull the fuse to check it, yes or no?

When you pulled it, does it have green or white corrosion, yes or no?

Did you check socket the fuse is in for corrosion, yes or no?

Did you pulled the fuel pump relay and check for corrosion, yes or no?

The simple act of removing, checking for corrosion and resetting fuses and relays is important and may cure problems.

The old pump that was replaced by prior owner and now this pump are at 30.  This problem has stumped others so its NOT an easy fix.

The MAIN issue now is, does it run 10 seconds?, and is it stopping because of corrosion or a bad relay?     Answer the questions above yes or no....    

Do not ASSUME anything, do what I said to do, pull and inspect and answer questions

See photo, that is a corroded relay, it will cause fits!   The relay itself can have burned contacts.

Please answer the questions, inspect and get back, this should have been done in the first 15 minutes.  

Closeupofgreencorrosion.jpg


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Sorry to sound terse and upset but this is going on to long. ASSUME NOTHING INSPECT


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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A look at rockauto tells me that you do have a leveling rear suspension, so you MAY hear a COMPRESSOR run, that is not the fuel pump that sounds like a motor.  The fuel pump is not usually loud.

Im am looking for my manual for a definative test.  I am at a huge disadvantage now because my GMsi crashed as usual.  


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Ok still at work but i will check.  When I had pulled the fuse and relay there was no sign of corrosion.  I replaced the fuse with brand new one.  I swapped relays to eliminate relay issue.  It did not resolve my issue.  New pump is not at 30 PSI.  That was the old pump.  New pump has no pressure.  So something from the old pump to the new pump changed as to why its not working.  When I get home I will start going down your list.

 

I mentioned in an earlier post about red or orange thicker wires had been cut and poorly spliced under the steering wheel.  Would these have anything to do with ignition or fuel?  I respliced them together but was unsure why two wires, 4 split ends, would be wired together.  Maybe it's unrelated.

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I do not know why you had 30 but now, 0 PSI, very ODD. 

You said you checked for codes, these are codes for fuel pump and relay.  I would think that IF this were electrical, you would set some sort of code.

DTC P0230 Fuel Pump Relay Control Circuit

DTC P0231 Fuel Pump Feedback Circuit Low Voltage

DTC P0232 Fuel Pump Feedback Circuit High Voltage

DTC P0233 Fuel Pump Secondary Circuit Intermittent

DTC P1221 Fuel Pump Secondary Circuit Low

I know you said you checked codes in the first post, but, check codes through the DASH, not a code reader and post ALL P and B codes here.  Missing 4X reference pulses are needed for the PCM to power the fuel pump relay.   POST ALL P and B codes in an orderly fashion too many issues can shut off the fuel pump.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Ok thanks bodybyFisher.  The old pump was getting 30 PSI not the new one.  New pump is not getting power.  I just placed hand on fuel pump while someone cranked and it did nothing.  Also place hand on relay and it was clicking or switching so that is working normal.  I will check codes and respond back shortly.  Thanks.

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34 minutes ago, Otten33 said:

Ok thanks bodybyFisher.  The old pump was getting 30 PSI not the new one.  New pump is not getting power.  I just placed hand on fuel pump while someone cranked and it did nothing.  Also place hand on relay and it was clicking or switching so that is working normal.  I will check codes and respond back shortly.  Thanks.

You do not need to crank it, as soon as you turn the key on, it will run.  NO, because it was CLICKING and SWITCHING does NOT mean it is working NORMAL what that tells me is that the FUSE is intact, it does not tell me if you have corrosion at the fuse or relay.  There are contacts in there that get burned. 

Nothing should be wrong with the new pump.  Check the connector again.   Turn key on and jiggle the connector listening for pump to run. 

Check and post codes, and check the items I questioned so we can focus this better. 

 


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Here is an example of what can happen.  97 Eldorado, no headlights.  The legs and interior contacts were corroded, and it clicked

20160204_192411T_zpsdk8ffvmm.jpg

20160204_163835_zpszdbagzt8.jpg


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Ok fuse was good not broke or any corrosion.  The relay was good no corrosion.   Both sockets for the pump relay and fuse was good.  They look like a brand new car.  See no signs of corrosion anywhere.  Turned key to on and wiggled connection and disconnected them.  No change.  I have codes but need to look up descriptors.  Do you want history codes also or just current codes?

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Post all current codes here.  Don't worry about descriptions just post all P, B and U codes 


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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DDM B3832

DDM B2507

IPC U1000

IPM B0419

IPM B0429

PCM P0016

PCM P0341

PCM  P0463

PDM B3832

PCM B2507

 

all current codes.

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Battery is charged and nothing from fuel pump.  I was hearing the suspension before and not the pump.  Pretty easy to tell when your laying in the trunk.  😁

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Have you checked for power at the Fuel pump plug.

Grey wire should be 12v for 3 seconds on key on and constant while cranking.

 


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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24 minutes ago, Otten33 said:

That's the big plug?  Put my positive probe in the port that grey wire is in?

Yes


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Ok it was a little hard to do by myself but I turned the key to on and jumped in trunk and checked grey wire.  Pretty hard to do in under 3 seconds but all I ever got was like .03 reading.  Could be a bad reading though.  I will try again tomorrow when I can have a helper.  Multimeter was set at 20 Volts and black probe was on metal ground.

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yup that should be a good connection.

 


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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Be sure your battery is good, it is fully charged and can pass a load test.

Give us a voltage test at the battery

You have codes that are lingering for cam sensor performance.  Disconnect the NEG cable for a minute and reconnect, try starting with fully charged battery and then check P and B codes again and post here.

Take a look at the CAM sensor and be sure it is connected it is on the rear head, on the passenger outboard side see photo.

0a25b5ef-9fa1-4af2-b6b3-f7641d3457cc_zpsdgegrru1.png


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Isn't mine located above the oil filter adapter.  That is where I changed out the two sensors earlier.  Is this on your late 90's cadillacs?

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Battery is brand new walmart battery.  It is fully charged but has not been load tested.  I can take it up to oreilys to have them check it out for me.

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The 2 sensors in the front of the engine are CRANK sensors, you are still getting a code for one.  

The CAM sensor needs to read a CAM gear.  It should be near the timing chains.  Take a look


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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