Banj

New Cadillac owner 97 Deville

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3 hours ago, rockfangd said:

...

Also to date I have never changed a rear hub assembly on any cadillac unless it was hit or hit something on the corner in question.

...

Never underestimate the power of salt on a grease seal when the car sits for long periods of time.

I once saw a new Porsche 911 being driven by a teen assistant mechanic blow out of a light change and, at 100++ mph, rear-end an old couple in an Olds sedan a quarter mile ahead and total both cars.  On my current car, I've found curb abrasions on three wheels that had been "buffed out" before I got the car.  The only perfect wheel is one I replaced myself about a year after I got the car.

Not to say that the rear hub is suspect; your vast experience is more than enough to forget the rear hub for now, but I'm saying that anything is possible in an old car unless it's never been out of your sight.  A previous owner could have bruised the right rear hub by sliding against a curb in the snow or whatever.


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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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The rear caliper pistons CAN be compressed with a C-clamp, actually I used a pry-bar or screwdriver and pushed against the pad and rotor so the notch would stay in place, BUT BUT BUT the lever had to be OFF the back of the caliper, that way the adjuster screw would rotate and not the piston. You would HAVE to be the HULK to compress that piston with the bracket on, or something would break. Plus, to use a C-clamp you have to balance it on the side and keep it away from the adjuster, which can be quite a feat. DO NOT lose the friction seal and washer #'s 7 & 8 in the second picture.

agb-frc6034_ls_xl.jpg

 

0900c1528025f193.gif

I've probably replaced less than 10 rear hubs. It's not a common problem but it does happen.

The caliper support bolts are a ONE time use bolt. I have reused them on MY own vehicles but I re-applied lock-tite (blue) and I NEVER reused them a second time

 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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37 minutes ago, Cadillac Jim said:

Never underestimate the power of salt on a grease seal when the car sits for long periods of time.

Especially, putting emphasis on the vehicle sitting for long periods of time.


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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6 hours ago, OldCadTech said:


The rear caliper pistons CAN be compressed with a C-clamp, actually I used a pry-bar or screwdriver and pushed against the pad and rotor so the notch would stay in place, BUT BUT BUT the lever had to be OFF the back of the caliper, that way the adjuster screw would rotate and not the piston. You would HAVE to be the HULK to compress that piston with the bracket on, or something would break. Plus, to use a C-clamp you have to balance it on the side and keep it away from the adjuster, which can be quite a feat. DO NOT lose the friction seal and washer #'s 7 & 8 in the second picture.

agb-frc6034_ls_xl.jpg

 

0900c1528025f193.gif

I've probably replaced less than 10 rear hubs. It's not a common problem but it does happen.

The caliper support bolts are a ONE time use bolt. I have reused them on MY own vehicles but I re-applied lock-tite (blue) and I NEVER reused them a second time

 

That is not at all what my caliper looks like. 

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6 hours ago, OldCadTech said:

Especially, putting emphasis on the vehicle sitting for long periods of time.

She did sit for about a week at a time but was driven almost every Sunday

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8 minutes ago, Banj said:

That is not at all what my caliper looks like. 

Others with more experience in brake work can likely get you the right diagram.  If that's a problem and you need the diagram, let me know your VIN by PM and I'll get your option list off the WWW and check my 1997 FSM for the right diagram and upload it.


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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Ok I'll get the vin for ya later. I just got to work

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6 hours ago, Cadillac Jim said:

Others with more experience in brake work can likely get you the right diagram.

 You must be doing brake work for a living so please explain the system to me and the OP. 

I only did brake work almost on a daily basis on Cadillacs until 1995... So yes, please take over and explain the system and the P-brake adjustment procedure. Since you have the FSM

rrcali.jpeg

Is this what he has? This style can be compressed with a C-clamp. 

rrcalip.jpg

There ya go....

 

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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1 hour ago, OldCadTech said:

 You must be doing brake work for a living so please explain the system to me and the OP. 

...

I'm sorry, I don't see how I conveyed that impression.   would first figure out whether the OP's brakes are or are not the same as the parts breakdown.  Sometimes it's not immediately clear.  We need to hear what he means by "That is not... what my caliper looks like."  Something more specific would be helpful.

Hauling out the 1997 E/K FSM, section 5B2, I see only one rear caliper without exclusions or separate paragraphs for RPO codes, which tells me that all rear calipers up until the manual went to press (3/6/97 press date on the first page; I ordered the manuals from Helm in October, 1997 when I bought the car) are the same.  Since there is only one rear caliper in the 1997 FSM, I don't need the VIN; the only rear caliper diagram that I have is shown below.

I see that the FSM full-page figure on page 5B2-3 is similar to OldCdTech's diagram except that my FSM figure has a different emergency brake emergency brake lever, bracket, and return spring, and there is a "PAD CLIP," number 4 in my diagram, that I don't see in your diagram. Your diagram is apparently from a later SI DVD or manual.  Either later production has a change in the emergency brake cable bracket and return spring, the diagram in my FSM is incorrect (rare, but I've see it before) or your diagram is for a different model year.

The operation of the brake, from my FSM page 5B2-1, is:

"This caliper has a single bore and is mounted to the support bracket with two mouing bolt and sleeve assemblies.  Hydraulic pressure, created by applying the brake pedal, is converted by the caliper to a stopping force.  This force ats equally against the piston and the bottom of the piston bore to move the piston outward and to move (slide) the caliper inward resulting in a clamping action.  This clamping action presses the linings against the rotor, creating friction to stop the vehicle."

More to the point, the operation of the emergency brake follows in the next two paragraphs:

When the parking brake is applied, the external caliper parking brake lever moves and rotates a spindle within the caliper housing.  As the spindle rotates, a connecting rod is pushed against an internal adjusting screw which is theaded into a sleeve nut (cone) in the piston assembly.  This causes the piston assembly to move outward bringing the inboard pad and lining assembly against the rotor.  As the inboard and lining contacts the rotor, a reaction force causes the caliper housing to slide inward pressing the outboard pad and lining against the rotor."

"The piston assembly contains a self-adjusting mechanism to keep the parking brake in proper adjustment.  As the linings are worn, the piston moves through the seal to maintain proper lining to rotor clearance.  The park brake adjusts to proper clearances through an internal sleeve nut that rotates and moves as one unit with the piston."

I you want translation from "technical writer-ese" to plain English, let me know and I'll do an interpretation.

I don't see a special tool called out for this section of the manual.

I hope this helps.

FSM_1997_5B2-3.png


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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Thanks, now we're all on the same page.

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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1 hour ago, Cadillac Jim said:

 

FSM_1997_5B2-3.png

I believe that is the correct diagram

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1 hour ago, Banj said:

This is my vin

1G6KD54Y7VU285860

I looked at the 2002 model year information on my SI DVD (that's as far back as the 2011 SI DVD goes) and it's much the same as the 1997 FSM for regular brakes.  There is a heavy duty brake option that may have been part of a trailer hauling package or other option, RPO J55, but that isn't available in the 1997 model year.  So, I didn't need the VIN, but since you posted it, here is what I find.  You should copy the information to a text file and keep it handy with your other car records.  The VIN, build date, paint number, and RPO list will be on a sticker on the inside of the spare tire cover in the trunk, but this list includes a line or two that explains each RPO.  Most of them are known but a few of them may be difficult to interpret without this list.

Car build date May 5, 1997.  There were about 101,000 cars like yours built.

RPO list:

RPO Description Matches
UW6 SPEAKER SYSTEM,6,DUAL FRONT DOOR TWEETER & WOOFER,DUAL EXTENDED RANGE 6 SPKR SYS(UW6) 72,078
U02 CLUSTER,INSTRUMENT,KILOMETER AND MILES,DIGITAL DISPLAY DIGITAL DISPLAY CSTR(U02) 92,059
U09 HORN,FOUR NOTE 4 NOTE HORN(U09) 100,970
U1L RADIO - AM STEREO/FM STEREO, SEEK/SCAN, AUTO/REV MUSIC SEARCH CASS, CLOCK, ETR RADIO,AFS,SS,CAS(U1L) 72,078
U75 ANTENNA,POWER(CHROME) PWR ANT(U75) 101,921
VM3 LABEL INFORMATION CONSUMER, CONTAINS BPR IMP STANDARD FOR FRT 5 MPH & RR 5 MPH 5 MPH BUMPER INFO LABEL(VM3) 82,609
V73 VEHICLE STATEMENT - US/CANADA US/CANADA VEHICLE STATEMENT(V73) 100,155
WJ7 TRIM,INTERIOR(LEATHER) LEATHER TR(WJ7) 99,797
15I INTERIOR TRIM,SHALE/NEUTRAL (15I) 65,193
152 TRIM COMBINATION,SHALE,LEATHER (152) 47,121
38U EXTERIOR COLOR,PRIMARY,BRIGHT TEAL METALLIC (38U) 6,981
46A ACCENT STRIPE COLOR,TWO TONE,LT CHESTNUT/GARNET RED (46A) 49,287
6LR COMPONENT FRT LH COMPUTER SEL SUSP SUSP(6LR) 100,915
7LR COMPONENT FRT RH - COMPUTER SEL SUSP SUSP(7LR) 100,915
8AP COMPONENT- COMPUTER SELECTED, SUSPENSION SUSP(8AP) 90,200
9AP COMPONENT- COMPUTER SELECTED, SUSPENSION SUSP(9AP) 90,200
AJ7 RESTRAINT SYSTEM FRT SEAT, INFLATABLE, DRIVER AND PASSENGER, FRT & SIDE INFL RST FRT & SI(AJ7) 101,931
AM6 SEAT,FRONT SPLIT,3 PASSENGER WITH CENTER ARMREST FRT SPLIT ST(AM6) 77,139
CJ2 HVAC SYSTEM AIR CONDITIONER FRT, AUTO TEMP CONT, AUX TEMP CONT A/C FRT AUTO/AUX CONT(CJ2) 101,921
DA1 ARM REST RR SEAT, STORAGE R/SEAT STOR A/RST(DA1) 99,237
DD0 MIRROR,O/S,R AND L REM CTL,ELEC,DEFOG,LT SENSITIVE O/S ELEC R/CON MIR(DD0) 100,227
DD8 MIRROR,INSIDE,REARVIEW,TILT,AUTOMATIC,LIGHT SENSITIVE I/S RR VIEW MIR,LIGHT SENSITIVE(DD8) 58,928
DEH PLANT CODE - DETROIT/HAMTRAMCK, MI, BOC HAMTRAMCK, MI PLANT(DEH) 101,919
D98 STRIPE,BODY SIDE ACCENT AND DECK LID ACNT STRPE(D98) 90,928
E2F RAPID DELIVERY SYS - FORECAST HOLES (E/K/V-TRK CKST) 60,135
E2M RAPID DELIVERY SYS - POPULAR CONFIGURATIONS THAT FALL BELOW THE MIN (E/K/V-TRK CKST) 30,563
E2P RAPID DELIVERY SYS - POPULAR CONFIGURATIONS (E/K/V-TRK CKST) 45,044
FE1 SUSPENSION SYSTEM,SOFT RIDE SOFT RIDE SUSP(FE1) 91,054
FE9 FEDERAL EMISSION CERTIFICATION FED EMIS(FE9) 86,973
FV3 RATIO TRANSAXLE FINAL DRIVE 3.11 3.11R(FV3) 92,059
IQ2 TRIM,INTERIOR DESIGN (IQ2) 75,292
JL9 BRAKE SYSTEM,POWER,FRONT AND REAR DISC,ANTILOCK FRT & RR DISC ANTILOCK BRK(JL9) 100,927
KG9 GENERATOR,140 AMPERE 140 AMP(KG9) 100,602
LD8 ENGINE GAS,8CYL,4.6L,V8,DOHC,SFI,(281C.I.D.)(NORTHSTAR) 4.6Y(LD8) 92,059
MH1 TRANSMISSION AUTO 4 SPD, 4T80E, ELECTRONIC CONV CLUTCH 4-SPD A/TRANS(MH1) 101,921
MX0 TRANSMISSION,AUTOMATIC,OVERDRIVE(MERCHANDISING OPTION) A/TRANS PROVISIONS(MX0) 101,932
NF2 EMISSION SYSTEM,FEDERAL,TIER 1 FED EMIS SYS(NF2) 86,974
NP5 STEERING WHEEL,LEATHER WRAPPED LEATHER WRAPPED STRG WHL(NP5) 101,932
NV8 STEERING POWER, MAGNETIC SPEED, VARIABLE ASSIST MAG SPD VAR ASSIST P/S(NV8) 101,921
QC9 WHEEL 16 X 7, ALUMINUM, SPORT ALUM WHL(QC9) 59,564
QPY TIRE ALL P225/60R16 WS2 R/PE ST TL ALS 97S TIRE(QPY) 91,042

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Wait for OldCadTech for more brake service information.  He's the "more experienced [than I]" Caddyinfo member that you need for your brake work.  Others will pitch in when they can, and there are lots of other good hands out and about on Caddyinfo.  OldCadTech is one of the best.


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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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4 minutes ago, Banj said:

Ok thank you ... Jim?

Yes?


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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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I just wasn't sure if that was your real name

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21 hours ago, Cadillac Jim said:

Never underestimate the power of salt on a grease seal when the car sits for long periods of time.

I once saw a new Porsche 911 being driven by a teen assistant mechanic blow out of a light change and, at 100++ mph, rear-end an old couple in an Olds sedan a quarter mile ahead and total both cars.  On my current car, I've found curb abrasions on three wheels that had been "buffed out" before I got the car.  The only perfect wheel is one I replaced myself about a year after I got the car.

Not to say that the rear hub is suspect; your vast experience is more than enough to forget the rear hub for now, but I'm saying that anything is possible in an old car unless it's never been out of your sight.  A previous owner could have bruised the right rear hub by sliding against a curb in the snow or whatever.

Oh I know that. I live in NY. I assume nothing on any car I work on. Just lucky sometimes.

As for the caliper pistons on the ones seen in the pic below I have never used any clamp on them.

I use the tool shown. Or the special clamp one that has the tool as part of it.

I am only saying that from my experience. I may be incorrect though.

What do your calipers look like?

brake tool.jpg


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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On October 17, 2017 at 8:24 PM, rockfangd said:

If you compressed the rear calipers with c clamps they are now junk.

The correct tool is under 10 dollars. And it can be substituted with a nice pair of needle nose pliers.

the calipers are released by turning the piston until it retracts.

The setup is actually the best dual brake setup I have seen yet. Very reliable.

Also to date I have never changed a rear hub assembly on any cadillac unless it was hit or hit something on the corner in question.

the fronts on the other hand are common and typically howl when they fail

 

My rear hub went bad because my brake was hanging due to a sticking emergency brake cable.  It's the only hub replaced, and under warranty, it was replaced with an oem unit.

wonder if the rotor overheated and boiled the grease out the hub?

when the wheel is lifted, it should not wiggle, and it should spin by hand.  while driving, a bad hub sounds like you are being followed by an old crop dusting propeller airplane.

 While your suspect wheel is jacked up, apply the emergency brake.  The wheel should not be able to be spun, and when the brake is released, the wheel should become free.

find the override release for the emergency brake under the dash, so you do not have to start up the car, and put it in gear to release the emergency brake.  This is not recommended if the car is jacked up or on jack stands.

 

 

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4 hours ago, rockfangd said:

...

What do your calipers look like?

Big black multi-piston Brembos.  I sold the ETC some time ago and drive a 2011 CTS-V now.  I'm just now starting to do my own work on it.  It's entered middle age, where dealers want to sell out-of-warranty work that I don't want done.  I had that problem with the ETC once it hit 60,000 miles; that's the thing that first drove me to Caddyinfo, help in taking on maintenance of the ETC myself.  After that I have tried to give back by helping others here.  The 1997 ETC never did need much, once I got away from dealer oil changes.  It did have the dreaded head gasket problem and I put in a Jasper.  Sold it at about 165,000 miles.  Still miss it sometimes.  The 1997 ETC went 120,000 miles before needing its first brake job.

A couple of years ago I dropped my CTS-V off at a dealer for an oil change and got a call to pick it up, where they told me that they did a 4-wheel full brake job, including calipers, disks hubs and rotors, because reasons.  After that $2K++ oil change I insisted on approving all work before it starts - but now they want to replace the rear shocks, the differential, and the drive shaft, so I'm going local with oil changes from now on.  I have no plans for doing the shocks, differential, or drive shaft in the foreseeable future.  This car broke me of my lead foot and I don't beat on my baby, and so far this is the most reliable car I've ever owned.

The brakes are relatively new, I've historically been easy on brakes - I love to drive, but I hate to STOP - so I don't expect to do the brakes for years.  I have the SI DVD which includes the complete 2011 FSM for the CTS-V including overhaul manuals for the transmission and such and am ready.  If you like I will post the FSM diagrams on the calipers.  I just checked the 2011 FSM and the emergency brake is a drum-in-hat in the rear rotors on my car.  Much less elegant than the DeVille emergency brake setup but I suppose they did that with the CTS-V to be compatible with the Brembos design as-is.

The rear calipers are four-piston, two pistons to a side, with a brake fluid pressure balance tube, both sides and the tube as a don't-take-it-apart assembly.  Brake option isn't on the sheet under the spare tire cover (probably part of the V package, but I do see the wheel and tire size options separately); I believe the Brembos RPO is J56, guessing from the RPO list in the FSM and the options listed for the CTS.  Other than the size of the calipers and the number of pistons, it's similar to the DeVille.  A one-piston caliper will have more provision for side-to-side float as the pads wear but the pistons on both sides, and having two pistons per side, are the big differences.

According to the FSM, changing the pads is a snap.  You remove a guide pin, then a pad positioning spring, then another guide pin, then pull the pads.  You use "a spreader tool" (no GM special tool called out) to put new pads in, then put the pins and spring back, and "burnish the pads and disk."  You operate the brakes to re-adjust the brake fluid levels, top off the master cylinder, and your'e done.  The burnishing operation is 20 gentle stops with reasonable cool-off intervals.  This sounds very much like the process of changing the pads on the disk brakes on my 1966 Corvette, which I had in 1966-1967.


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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Sorry for the inaccurate information, I went with my first recollection of the calipers. That didn't work...

Anyway, did you get a chance to check out the hub?


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Not yet I haven't really had time to do anything with her with me working so much and helping my friend

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16 hours ago, Banj said:

I just wasn't sure if that was your real name

My real name is Cadillac Jim.


CTS-V_Dashboard.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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No worries, whenever you're ready...


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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