Morehitoz

1982 coupe Deville starts but won't stay running

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My 1982 coupe Deville started bogging out like it's not getting enough fuel or it like chokes itself out. After trying to start it up it would not start. So I changed the spark plugs and wires and car started up again, only to die off after a couple of seconds. So I figured I wasn't getting fuel. So I changed the fuel filter and it started but it runs really rough and shakes terrible. Shut the car off and I noticed smoke out the passenger side window. I looked under the car to see where smoke was coming from and the catalytic converter was glowing red and very hot? Don't know where to begin in fixing my car. Can someone please help

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:welcomesmiley:  What color smoke, gray or black?

What diagnostic trouble codes are being displayed? 

When was the last time the O2 sensors were changed?

 


Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black; 2013 Cadillac ATS 2L Turbo Premium (Wife's)

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Black smoke haven't got no readings, unable to drive car to mechanic shop. I thought it would be something I can fix, when you say o2 censor I don't know what that is or where it's at. Hence me looking here for guidance. I really do appreciate the help

 


Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black; 2013 Cadillac ATS 2L Turbo Premium (Wife's)

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4 hours ago, Bruce Nunnally said:

 

 

6 hours ago, Bruce Nunnally said:

:welcomesmiley:  What color smoke, gray or black?

What diagnostic trouble codes are being displayed? 

When was the last time the O2 sensors were changed?

4 hours ago, Bruce Nunnally said:

 

 Hi Bruce sorry I had to go to work, I hope I'm doing this' right (the  reply). Any way I have black smoke coming out of the tail pipe , haven't run no diagnostic test on it cause I have no equipment to do so. I was hoping you could send me in the right direction as to helping me troubleshoot  through my problems, so I  guess I can start by asking if there's any way I can get like a diagram of the  fuel regulator and how it works, and where the vacuum lines are supposed to be, and if possible the wiring diagram to the fuel regulator so I can see if all connections and vacuum hose are properly placed and there's no leaks. Thanks

 

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Yes, you are doing it right.  Welcome.

 The reason I asked color smoke is that oil tends to burn black, coolant in the combustion tends to cause gray smoke.

I think you are thinking the right way -- combustion needs fuel, air, spark in the right amounts and at the right time.  If it is starting then dying, either no fuel, no fuel pressure (so no fuel) no spark or spark at the wrong time.  Here are some relevant file for how to get into diagnostic mode, how to check O2 sensors, how to check fuel pressure regulator

HT4100 8D1-14.jpg

 

 

HT4100 DFI Chart 14.jpgHT4100 DFI chart 4.jpg


Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black; 2013 Cadillac ATS 2L Turbo Premium (Wife's)

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22 minutes ago, Bruce Nunnally said:

Yes, you are doing it right.  Welcome.

 The reason I asked color smoke is that oil tends to burn black, coolant in the combustion tends to cause gray smoke.

I think you are thinking the right way -- combustion needs fuel, air, spark in the right amounts and at the right time.  If it is starting then dying, either no fuel, no fuel pressure (so no fuel) no spark or spark at the wrong time.  Here are some relevant file for how to get into diagnostic mode, how to check O2 sensors, how to check fuel pressure regulator

HT4100 8D1-14.jpg

 

 

HT4100 DFI Chart 14.jpgHT4100 DFI chart 4.jpg

Thanks Bruce I'll check to see if get codes and get back to you. Thanks

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48 minutes ago, Bruce Nunnally said:

Yes, you are doing it right.  Welcome.

 The reason I asked color smoke is that oil tends to burn black, coolant in the combustion tends to cause gray smoke.

I think you are thinking the right way -- combustion needs fuel, air, spark in the right amounts and at the right time.  If it is starting then dying, either no fuel, no fuel pressure (so no fuel) no spark or spark at the wrong time.  Here are some relevant file for how to get into diagnostic mode, how to check O2 sensors, how to check fuel pressure regulator

HT4100 8D1-14.jpg

 

 

HT4100 DFI Chart 14.jpgHT4100 DFI chart 4.jpg

Okay I did the onboard diagnostic on my car and it read some numbers. Numbers were 21, 26, 27, 31, 35, 52.

and the Econ button  light was on, the lo button light was on, and the auto button light was on. Now my car is having a hard time starting and I drained my battery. One question though, does the car have to be running for the diagnostic procedure? Because, the car was running then died when I did this, and then I did it again without car running. So let me know if I'm doing this right. Thanks

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 does the car have to be running for the diagnostic procedure?  no

There are some things that you can do from diagnostics that can kill the engine but since your engine not running smoothly it dying is not surprising.


Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black; 2013 Cadillac ATS 2L Turbo Premium (Wife's)

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The glowing catalytic converter points to a way too rich condition caused by unmetered fuel entering the mixture - either by a leaking injector or a fuel pressure regulator that has a torn diaphragm.  If you remove the vacuum line from the fuel pressure regulator and turn the key to on, check to see that no fuel is dripping out of the nipple on the fuel pressure regulator.  If there is, replace the fuel pressure regulator.

You can unclip the injectors from the throttle body injector (TBI) unit and repeat the same test - if fuel is leaking from the injector(s) then the injector(s) are bad.

Another thought is there is a vacuum like that runs under the throttle body that can go bad with age.  When it leaks, it will make the engine run very rough - just something to check.


Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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16 hours ago, Bruce Nunnally said:

 does the car have to be running for the diagnostic procedure?  no

There are some things that you can do from diagnostics that can kill the engine but since your engine not running smoothly it dying is not surprising.

Thank you KHE, I'm still charging battery but that's sounds like a good plan now I whent to the parts store last night and bought all new vacuum lines and hose clamps. So today I'm gonna re place that and also can I get a vacuum sequence diagram if any one has one I've been lookin on line but can't seem to get one.  And if a pic to show where the fuel regulator is located and which line to check for fuel thank you so much

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On 4/14/2017 at 6:20 AM, Bruce Nunnally said:

:welcomesmiley:  What color smoke, gray or black?

What diagnostic trouble codes are being displayed? 

When was the last time the O2 sensors were changed?

 

 

On 4/14/2017 at 8:50 AM, Bruce Nunnally said:

 

 

On 4/14/2017 at 2:48 PM, Bruce Nunnally said:

 does the car have to be running for the diagnostic procedure?  no

There are some things that you can do from diagnostics that can kill the engine but since your engine not running smoothly it dying is not surprising.

 

On 4/15/2017 at 6:26 AM, KHE said:

The glowing catalytic converter points to a way too rich condition caused by unmetered fuel entering the mixture - either by a leaking injector or a fuel pressure regulator that has a torn diaphragm.  If you remove the vacuum line from the fuel pressure regulator and turn the key to on, check to see that no fuel is dripping out of the nipple on the fuel pressure regulator.  If there is, replace the fuel pressure regulator.

You can unclip the injectors from the throttle body injector (TBI) unit and repeat the same test - if fuel is leaking from the injector(s) then the injector(s) are bad.

Another thought is there is a vacuum like that runs under the throttle body that can go bad with age.  When it leaks, it will make the engine run very rough - just something to check.

 

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Is there a part 6 on fuel on fuel system diagnostics chart? If so can I see it? And is there a picture of the fuel regulator and where it's positioned on the '82 Cadillac Coupe Deville HT 4100 V8 engine? Thank you for your time

IMG_3043.JPG

Edited by Morehitoz

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On 4/14/2017 at 2:10 PM, Morehitoz said:

Thanks Bruce I'll check to see if get codes and get back to you. Thanks

Is there supposed to be pressure on fuel pressure gauge when key is set to The on position? Cause I don't have pressure. When I turn engine on ( running ) I get 10lbs of pressure and it stays there, but the engine dies after a while . I changed fuel filter, replaced vacuum lines . Can't tell if injectors are good cause car won't stay running long enough to chec

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Sounds to me that the cat is plugged and there is not enough engine vacuum. If you have a vacuum gauge, install it and check the vacuum when it is running. 

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Make sure that the Manifold Absolute Pressure ( MAP ) sensor is plugged in and has a good source of vacuum. 

The MAP sensor is located on the right ( passenger ) side cylinder valve cover or on the firewall above the distributor I can't remember where. CadMAPsensor.jpg

The picture is looking at the bottom, the top is flat. Notice there is a 3-wire connector and a vacuum hose connector...


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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1 hour ago, OldCadTech said:

Make sure that the Manifold Absolute Pressure ( MAP ) sensor is plugged in and has a good source of vacuum. 

The MAP sensor is located on the right ( passenger ) side cylinder valve cover or on the firewall above the distributor I can't remember where. CadMAPsensor.jpg

The picture is looking at the bottom, the top is flat. Notice there is a 3-wire connector and a vacuum hose connector...

I don't see it is the picture you sent the exact one that should be on my car? 

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It should be very similar if not exact. 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Look on the A.I.R. management valve bracket it may be mounted on that down low. I'll do some research, It may be mounted under the glove box, it's been a long time.


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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7 hours ago, OldCadTech said:

Look on the A.I.R. management valve bracket it may be mounted on that down low. I'll do some research, It may be mounted under the glove box, it's been a long time.

Okay I found it inside the car under glove box will do test tomorrow it got late on me thanks

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Just now, Morehitoz said:

Okay I found it inside the car under glove box will do test tomorrow it got late on me thanks

 

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Great, follow that hose back into the engine compartment and make sure it is not damaged, brittle, squishy or disconnected, It should connect to the throttle body.


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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If it is easier you can connect the vacuum gauge to that hose inside the car and reach over and start the engine. That way you can monitor the vacuum gauge as you start the engine.

Some easy to understand interpretations of vacuum gauge readings;

Vacumm-Gauge

Normal

This a normal reading—between 17 and 22 inches of mercury. Keep in mind, this reading is ideal for stock-cammed engines running at sea level. Higher elevations may cause slightly lower readings. For every 1,000 feet above sea level, you can expect the reading to be about one inch lower. You can also expect the readings to be lower for more aggressive cams.

 

Vacumm-Gauge2

Steady Low/Extremely Low

The gauge at left shows an extremely low reading, which holds fairly steady. This means the engine is producing less power and, therefore, less vacuum. Common causes of steady low reading are blowby due to worn piston rings or possibly late ignition or valve timing. An extremely low reading could also indicate an air leak at the intake manifold or throttle body.

 

 

Vacumm-Gauge3

Steady Low/High Swing

A regular swing between high and low readings often means a blown head gasket between two, side-by-side cylinders. To confirm, you’ll need to perform a compression test.

 

 

Vacumm-Gauge5

Rapid Vibration at Idle

If the needle vibrates rapidly between 14 and 20 inches of mercury, but then steadies as rpm increases, you may be dealing with worn valve guides. How fast the needle vibrates is telling of how many valve guides may be worn.

 

 

Vacumm-Gauge11

Fluctuation Under Acceleration

Conversely, if the gauge’s needle swings back and forth as the engine accelerates, your valve springs are probably too week for your engine. The swing on the gauge is usually anywhere from 10 to 22 inches of mercury, depending on the speed of the engine.

 

 

Vacumm-Gauge7

Drastic Needle Drop

With exhaust restriction, the vacuum gauge will often start in the normal range but will soon drop drastically as rpm is increased. You likely have a restriction somewhere within your exhaust system or a damage exhaust component.

 

Vacumm-Gauge9

Abnormally High Reading

Conversely, a choked or restricted air cleaner would result in a higher than normal reading, depending on how hard the engine works to pull in air.

 

 

Vacumm-Gauge6

Normal/Low Pattern

When the needle drops to a low reading, returns to normal, and then repeats the pattern at regular intervals, you’re likely looking at a burnt, sticking, or leaking valve. Often, a sticking valve will cause more sporadic drops during this pattern.

 

 

wavers_irregular

(image from pakwheels.com)

4 or 5-Inch Fluctuation

If you notice the needle slowly fluctuating between four or five inches, chances are you have an ignition-related issue. Check your spark plug gap as this condition often indicates too narrow of a gap. Also, check your distributor cap and wires. If none of these areas are the culprit, you may need to adjust your idle mixture.

 

 

0.jpg

(courtesy of Holley Performance)

 

8 to 14-Inch Reading

A steady low reading between eight and 14 inches of mercury is usually indicative of incorrect valve timing.

 


           


 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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19 hours ago, Morehitoz said:

Is there supposed to be pressure on fuel pressure gauge when key is set to The on position? Cause I don't have pressure. When I turn engine on ( running ) I get 10lbs of pressure and it stays there, but the engine dies after a while . I changed fuel filter, replaced vacuum lines . Can't tell if injectors are good cause car won't stay running long enough to chec

10 PSI of fuel pressure is normal for a throttle body injected engine.  Did you check the vacuum line from the MAP sensor?  I think that is the one that runs from the MAP sensor down to the throttle body.  Where it runs under the throttle body, there is a rubber coupler that can rot and leak and cause a severe driveability issue.


Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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