BodybyFisher

Head bolt torque, NS

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A lot of points you make here. I think that a gentlemanly atmosphere makes a thinking man's board possible, and yes, that's what we have here.

I would hope that every municipality has regulations on grounding of metal buildings and roofs, and the guy at your cousin's place that was installing metal siding just didn't know it. I can find out easily enough if you are curious.

The thing about high-voltage arcs is that they involve sudden high currents. Clouds build up static electricity energy all the time, and because of their size and isolation from the ground, the voltages and total energies are enormous. This is always happening. It even happens in masses of clear air (no clouds). Driving across the desert once, I saw a lightning bolt strike a hilltop in the distance, with no cloud in sight anywhere; I have had people not believe me because they believe that a cloud must be involved.

The thing that makes this different than current flowing from, say, a battery ground connection, is that sudden high currents have a magnetic field expansion that tends to make them follow narrow paths. That's why lightning follows bolts, and you don't see wide, dispersed paths like the Northern Lights, which are more slowly varying currents outside the atmosphere, actually flows of ions in vacuum, with light as the ions add or lose electrons as they interact with the outer reaches of the atmosphere.

That can happen with automotive spark, I would think. The total energies can be inferred from the specs of aftermarket CDI ignitions. If you have 0.5 Joules across a gap of 0.05" for 1 microsecond, you come up with hundreds of amps. You can say that the time should be much shorter (it should, increasing the current) and the voltage higher to account for compression (it should, decreasing the current) but the point is that spark currents are startlingly high and very quickly changing, and they probably find a serpentine path between the heads, and I don't see an easy way to find out what it is, other than making measurements on a running engine with a fast oscilloscope.

Resistance is a factor, of course. Resistance is resistivity (rho in your chart) times length divided by the cross-sectional area of the conductor. If the current collects into a rope because of magnetic effects, the cross-sectional area will be a lot smaller and the resistance will be higher than you will measure with a voltmeter. The path of least resistance can depend on where the rope goes. This can make it hard to predict what the path of the circuit is, exactly, between the heads. Think trying to predict where lightning will strike, and what will happen when it does.

I have the distinct feeling that this was known to the Northstar designers but I have no idea how we might access that information other than a literature search. But I would expect that looking at differences between coil-on-plug versions versus the four-coil versions might provide food for thought.

The LSA ignition coils are bolted to the valve cover, which has four bolts to the head. The 3.6 and Northstar, looking at the 2005 FSM, have their coils mounted to a grounded retainer by a single small bolt, which is likely the coil secondary (HV) winding ground. So those systems keep each spark circuit pretty close, particularly the DOHC engines.


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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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So the key would be to keep the bolt holes and threads dry as the coolant will accelerate electrolysis in the presence of an electric charge. The guru said that when the coolant became acidic it ate the headgasket allowing coolant into the holes causing the bolt to pull. Do I remember this correctly?

The reason why the engine needs timeserting is because once the head bolts are removed the threads have been compromised. Its possible that they had become weakened over time from the combustion forces trying to pull the bolts out in conjunction with removing the bolts after the threads have been have been weakened. Have we ever figured out why they need to be timeserted, is it that the threads are weakened or damaged when the bolt is removed? The constant hammering of combustion in a high compression engine must want to rip the bolts out.

It is interesting to note flipping through the Timesert catalog how many car manufacturers Timesert makes inserts for, so this is not something that is peculiar to the Northstar.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I am curious what you guys think of this coolant that is; no water, no oxygen, low pressure 5 PSI which is easier on all components and seals, high boiling point of 375 degrees. What I read so far is impressive, they tout it as eliminating corrosion. I think I read that its a lifetime coolant. I think it would be very interesting to see how a newly boiled out, timeserted and rebuilt NS would operate with this coolant.

http://www.evanscooling.com/


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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First, the best reasonable coolant fluid in terms of carrying heat for a given flow rate is water. Even anti-freeze reduces the effectiveness, which is why some people run distilled water w/o antifreeze in intercoolers. The heat capacity of water is about 4.2 Joules per cc per degree Kelvin. It's hard to top that. To keep the capacity with a different fluid, you need to increase the flow rate proportionally do the decrease in heat capacity.

Second, there will always be some contamination in the coolant. Because in the real world there is no such thing as zero leakage, there will be combustion products in very tiny amounts that over long periods of time that, if harmful, will need to be neutralized, removed, or dealt with somehow. Air exposure is going to happen in the air pocket in the surge tank, because when the car cools down then air is passed into the surge tank through the radiator cap check valve, then released again when the engine heats up through the pressure release valve. So, there will be oxygen, water, carbon dioxide, and traces of other things in the air. Again tiny, but over a lifetime, this may be another source that must be dealt with.

The excellent heat capacity of water is why it's almost universally used as a coolant whenever temperature ranges will allow that, even in industrial and scientific facilities that have the wherewithall to use whatever is best to solve their problem.

The contamination issue is why antifreeze needs to be drained or flushed occasionally.

BTW, when I did a coolant change in the previous century, my practice is to remove the thermostat, drain the system, and refill with tap water. Then, I open the radiator petcock and run water into the radiator fill simultaneously while letting the engine idle until the drain water runs clear. Then, I shout off the engine and the fill water, let it drain until it was done, put in a new thermostat, and used pure anti-freeze to top off the coolant. I went from there to get at least 50-50, but usually it was close enough.


CTS-V_Dashboard.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Jim, I am not sure if you perused Evan's web page but I found their information very interesting. The point from my perspective is to lessen the chances of corrosion and improve cooling. If this coolant performs at only 5 PSI, I think that will improve the longevity of seals, tanks, radiators and heater cores. If it has a boiling point of 375 degrees vs. 265 degrees for standard coolant, that is part of the reason for the lower pressure. If it eliminates corrosion, don't you think that is a terrific benefit?

First, the best reasonable coolant fluid in terms of carrying heat for a given flow rate is water. Even anti-freeze reduces the effectiveness, which is why some people run distilled water w/o antifreeze in intercoolers. The heat capacity of water is about 4.2 Joules per cc per degree Kelvin. It's hard to top that. To keep the capacity with a different fluid, you need to increase the flow rate proportionally do the decrease in heat capacity.

Second, there will always be some contamination in the coolant. Because in the real world there is no such thing as zero leakage, there will be combustion products in very tiny amounts that over long periods of time that, if harmful, will need to be neutralized, removed, or dealt with somehow. Air exposure is going to happen in the air pocket in the surge tank, because when the car cools down then air is passed into the surge tank through the radiator cap check valve, then released again when the engine heats up through the pressure release valve. So, there will be oxygen, water, carbon dioxide, and traces of other things in the air. Again tiny, but over a lifetime, this may be another source that must be dealt with.

The excellent heat capacity of water is why it's almost universally used as a coolant whenever temperature ranges will allow that, even in industrial and scientific facilities that have the wherewithall to use whatever is best to solve their problem.

The contamination issue is why antifreeze needs to be drained or flushed occasionally.

BTW, when I did a coolant change in the previous century, my practice is to remove the thermostat, drain the system, and refill with tap water. Then, I open the radiator petcock and run water into the radiator fill simultaneously while letting the engine idle until the drain water runs clear. Then, I shout off the engine and the fill water, let it drain until it was done, put in a new thermostat, and used pure anti-freeze to top off the coolant. I went from there to get at least 50-50, but usually it was close enough.

Here is what they said about water:

Although water is cheap and readily available, it is also the root cause of corrosion within engine cooling systems. Water when heated drives off a significant proportion of dissolved oxygen, but as it cools reabsorbs fresh oxygen. This cycle leads to a perpetual cycle of corrosion, which is accentuated in classic vehicles with no expansion chamber.

Water also acts as an electrolyte if dissolved solids, such as hardness salts (lime scale) etc., are present. This promotes galvanic corrosion where metals of high nobility sacrifice themselves to metals of lower nobility – this is often manifested by pitting.

Corrosion inhibitor formulations have changed many times over the years, but not always for the better. Nitrite, silicate, borate and azole based products have been around for many years, with Organic Acid Technology (OAT) inhibitors appearing more recently. OAT formulations are often branded as ‘Long-Life’ based on their five year life-span, compared with 1-2 years for standard antifreeze formulations.

Although OAT-EG-Water mixtures are now used in most new car engines, they have proven less successful in older vehicles and heavy duty diesel engines (HDDE). After several years of trying OAT based products many HDDE OEMs and fleet operators reverted to nitrite and/or Hybrid OAT (HOAT) formulations. One reason for this u-turn was that OAT formulations offer little protection against liner pitting. (caused by local boiling).

To maintain effective inhibitor levels it is often necessary to retro-dose with Supplemental Coolant Additives or SCAs. It is common for SCA’s to be under or over dosed leading to accelerated corrosion rates, cylinder liner pitting or blocking up of radiator channels with congealed inhibitor.

Evans Waterless Coolants contain little oxygen and are comparatively poor conductors (the point of me chasing my tail) in comparison to water based antifreeze. Subsequently metal corrosion and coolant degradation is eliminated. Yeah!

Since the 1930's engine coolants have been based on a mixture of ethylene glycol, water and corrosion inhibitors. All such mixtures have inherent physical and chemical limitations that restrict engine performance and affect reliability. Evans Waterless Coolants represent a major step forward in engine cooling and engine protection technology.

Traditional water-based antifreeze regularly cross from efficient Nucleate Boiling (A), where the vapor finds liquid coolant cold enough to condense it, to a Vapor Insulating Condition ( B). At ( B), the liquid coolant is not cool enough to condense the vapor and a pocket of vapor forms that insulates the hot metal from the liquid coolant. Compared to liquid coolant, water vapor conducts heat very poorly, about 97% worse. The hot metal gets hotter, making a hotspot that causes detonation issues. Evans coolants avoid Vapor Insulating Conditions because any vapor condenses immediately into coolant that is always very much colder than its high boiling point.

I believe this will cause the engine to run cooler as the coolant resists local boiling (near the combustion chambers and sleeves) stopping the pocket of vapor allowing the coolant to carry the heat away with it cooling the engine more efficiently.

Water is an excellent fluid for cooling (as you stated) as long as it remains in a liquid state, but when water turns to steam it has virtually no capacity for heat transfer.

Evans is a superior fluid for transferring heat in engines because it remains in a liquid state until above 375°F. This article details the benefits of a significantly higher boiling point.

Within an engine cooling system the hottest surfaces are those adjacent to the combustion chamber, specifically the cylinder liners and cylinder head. In these hot spots water is likely to vaporize preventing efficient cooling and causing loss of performance and unnecessary engine damage. When the coolant fails in this way the engine becomes even hotter causing more hot spots and more steam.

Evans waterless coolants will not boil around these engine hotspots maintaining efficient cooling performance even when the engine is put under extreme conditions.

When water turns to steam it pressurizes the cooling system putting stress in hoses and other components. The significantly higher boiling point of Evans coolants means significantly less pressure than water resulting in a less stressed cooling system

Water contains oxygen which causes corrosion and also allows electrolytic activity which further damages engine metals. Evans waterless coolants eliminate corrosion and electrolytic activity significantly increasing the life of the engine.

Maintenance of coolant:

It is important to closely follow directions during the initial EWC installation. A water content higher that 3% will lower the boiling point, and may reduce the corrosion and pump cavitation protection of EWC. If a water test shows there is between 3 and 5% water in the coolant, the corrective action is to drain half of the system volume and add back new EWC. This will reduce the water content to an acceptable range. If the measured water content is greater than 5%, the system must be drained and refilled with new EWC.

There are two methods to determine water content after installation of EWC.

  1. Using a Conversion Kit - The kit is an essential tool for converting over from a water-based Coolant to Evans Waterless Coolant. The kit contains water content test strips that measure the final water content after the waterless coolant conversion is completed. The kit is typically sold to your do-it yourserlfers.
  2. Using a refractometer - A refractometer is a device used to measure the final water content after conversion to EWC and uses a Brix scale. The refractometers are most commonly used by fleets or conversion facilities where installations are regularly performed. Instructions for use are included in the installation instructions.

I think this coolant is worth trying in a Northstar given that it fights electrolysis, it seems to provide all of the benefits that the Northstar will benefit from. For operational Northstars, it will be very difficult to get the water content below 5%, this coolant would be terrific after an engine rebuilt after the block and heads are boiled out. I will try to embed a youtube video from Jay Leno's garage on this coolant.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I can't embed this video for some reason, I don't see the check mark for allow HTML. But this link will take you to Jay Leno's site and there is a nice presentation on Evans Coolant. The kicker, this is $40 per gallon.

http://<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-wjL7lDtxW8?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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No, I didn't read the blog; the fact that it's waterless is all I addressed.

My frustration is that there is no solid hint of what exactly the coolant main component is. One hint is the racing version, NPG, which is for venues that do not allow ethylene glycol coolants but do allow propylene glycol.

I mentioned that the heat carrying capacity of pure water is 4.2 Joules per gram per degree Kelvin. A good representative of automotive coolant at operating temperature, 50% ethylene glycol is about 3.6 J/g-K at 90 C. Extrapolating, pure ethylene glycol might be at about 3.0 J/g-K, which is probably good enough for most automotive cooling needs, if everything else is in tip-top shape to provide some extra margin. Whoa, I just found the specific heat on the High Performance type, given as 2.633 J/g-K on their PDF data sheet.

The index of refraction and boiling point on the data sheet isn't consistent with ethylene glycol or ethylene glycol-water of any concentration. So, the coolant is probably a different compound related to ethylene glycol, such as a gycol ether, possibly a mixture of two or three such compounds. I looked for an MSDS on the web site, which would provide a list of ingredients, but did not find one.

One thing that bothers me is that they say that the system never needs servicing or replenishment of anticorrosion additives or whatever. My feeling is that the life of this coolant may be long, but as I said in a previous post, there will always be trace amounts of combustion gases and air getting into the coolant.

So, yes, it seems like this coolant is well worth trying in older Northstar cooling systems. One should do a flow test and pressure test of the cooling system to make sure that the radiator, heater core, and all the hoses, gaskets, and water pump seals are in top-notch shape, and I would flat-out recommend a new water pump just to be sure. Be sure the surge tank isn't brittle or damaged. A new radiator, and, if you are up for the job, a new heater core would be worth looking at.

If you do get some of this coolant, please post the MSDS number or other information here so that we can get it and find out the ingredients, better to understand things that are not said on the web site, which is essentially a sales brochure.

Reference for ethylene glycol, Dow property page for their food processing equipment coolants, with links to PDF property pages:

http://www.dow.com/heattrans/products/glycol/dowtherm.htm


CTS-V_Dashboard.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Interestering reading. I would think that a strip of zinc in the radiator would neutralize any damaging substances that the coolant might either pick up, or convert Into over time. As many of you might know, a small replaceable component on outboard boat engines is made of zinc. The design allows for this piece to purposly disolve in the presence of corrosive salt water and thus saving the aluminum from going to dust. In a closed cooling system, i can see this having many benefits.

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A zinc plate, which is called "cathodic protection" because it represents the cathode in an electrolyte, is an excellent thing to do when the fluid is continuously flowing outside the engine, as water cooling with most boat engines, boat hulls, etc. For large boat hulls, you need to have several because their radius of protection is limited, particularly in salt water. The iron hull, the zinc plate, and sea water amount to a shorted battery of iron and zinc in sea water.

In a cooling system, you need to have the zinc near wherever the corrosion can occur. Although we think of corrosion in the head under the head gasket (where is the zinc there?), the internals of both heads, the block, the heater core, and the radiator core are all important. I once changed a thermostat housing on a Chrysler 440 iron engine because it was aluminum, and a hole had appeared on its top. Since this was a daily driver for an out-of-town friend's wife and not a high school science fair demonstration of a geyser...

This leads to inspection an replacement. Like transmission fluid and coolant, if it doesn't need attention during warranty, the dealers are probably not going to think about it.

Zinc in a closed system is going to slowly accumulate zinc corrosion products, like zinc carbonate and other zinc salts from whatever acids are in the coolant. Effects on the water pump seals and bearings may be something to look at. It might need attention when the coolant is changed to get any sediment out of the bottom of the radiator tanks. Of course, this is true of aluminum and other components of the engine metal such as magnesium, so this may not be a problem.

But the problem with the Northstar is that the head bolt threads eventually get porous or worse from electrolytic action between the steel bolts and the aluminum threads; where you would put the zinc on the head bolt is problematic. I have heard that the head bolt wells are sealed during production, so the zinc would need to be exempted from this process. Perhaps a ring of zinc at the bottom of each bolt just above the threads would be good.

One permanent solution would be to use steel inserts like Timeserts during production and not wait for the first teardown. This would increase production costs and probably is not necessary with due diligence with maintenance. And, who knows, but traces of acidic coolant might eventually lead to the same problem between the steel Timeserts and the aluminum block. We don't hear about that because nobody that has had the dreaded head gasket problem is going to let the coolant get old, and if they did, it would take another six or seven years (with red coolant, less with green) for that to happen.


CTS-V_Dashboard.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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I changed my coolant every 3 or 4 years for the 20 years i had my '96. Last changed in dec 2014 when i put in a new Delco surge tank. Always used the GM approved prestone. I plan to take it down to Florida again in November to visit my parents. I want to be a data point that changing the coolant regularly keeps the head bolts from pulling! I understand what you are saying about the zinc so i will not experiment.

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I always changed my coolant every year before I got the ETC in 1997. After that, I relied on the dealer. As long as the car was in warranty, they were golden, all of them, on both coasts. Once it got out of warranty, though, I started to do my own work and became a regular here. Because the coolant is rated at 150,000 miles, it never occurred to me that you must drive an average of 30,000 miles a year to hit that before it times out at five years. I did clear out a lot of "tracks" in the car, though, like a broken-off fitting on the surge tank that had been kludged, not fixed, resulting in nagging small coolant leaks from when it happened, a little over a year after I bought the car; I had been putting coolant in every few months for a few years by then. There were a few more noteworthy ones.

The highest mileage Northstar that I have seen for sale was noted here on Caddyinfo. It was a Deville that had been an airport limo in NYC. They proudly featured a photo of the odometer in the ad that showed 350,000 miles. No word on the maintenance history, though.

Most people come to Caddyinfo either for help or to help others. Happy campers usually aren't active on bulletin boards, with notable exceptions. I would like to see that change on Caddyinfo because nearly all Cadillacs are exceptional cars, particularly the V-Series and V-Sport series, and the new models including the CT6 and such. Happy campers that own and drive exceptional cars are occasionally active on bulletin boards, and Caddyinfo is a gentleman's enthusiast site at its core. But, people posting on boards is a lot like migrating flocks of birds, sometimes the alight in one tree, sometimes in another, for no apparent reason.


CTS-V_Dashboard.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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winterset, it just occurred to me that if about 15% of Northstars have head gasket problems after several years, including those that don't do regular coolant changes, the odds of your car being one of those is pretty low. Also, head gasket problems on Timeserted engines are pretty rare, once you get past the failed installation period of about 90 days. On the other hand, if it *does* have a head gasket problem, and you pull it down yourself, you can look at the material that comes out of the head bolt holes when you run the tap for the BigSerts, examine the head, bore surfaces, and the head gasket with a jeweler's loupe, etc.

Have you thought about BBF's suggestion of a pH meter? I'm planning to do that. I recently got my car's coolant changed so it isn't a priority but I definitely think that's a great idea, even with a DIY guy with just two cars. My motorcycle is oil-cooled, believe it or not; it's a 1999 Suzuki Bandit 1200S that runs oil through the heads for cooling, and through a big radiator behind the forks like the water-cooled bikes use.


CTS-V_Dashboard.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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