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Torque Converter Shudder 99 Deville


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The only think that concerns me is that your shudder went away when you tapped the brake

I do think that a TCC solenoid would set a code

Not that it couldnt happen, but I dont know of anyone getting shudder from a P0741 code, I believe that code indicates excessive slip within the torque converter

I trust there are no other codes

We had another member with an odd mis/shudder, I cant remember which KEN it was, we have two, Ill do a search later, he had a similar problem, ill find it.

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Not that it couldnt happen, but I dont know of anyone getting shudder from a P0741 code

I can't say that I have ever heard of that either.

Now I'm starting to get worried that it is a mechanical failure of the torque converter again.

Torque converters are pretty reliable. I can't say that I have heard of many failures there either. I to am leaning towards ignition.

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Well, I swapped out all the coils, one by one, with the new coil and the problem persisted. I pulled one of the plugs to see what brand it was and what kind of shape it was in. It was AC Delco and it looked brand new. Still had the platnium tip and everything.

I also unplugged the EGR and tested. I figured if there isn't EGR blowing in there and it's an igntion problem, it should change. It didn't change a bit. Or maybe the EGR is stuck open...

Now I'm starting to get worried that it is a mechanical failure of the torque converter again. That does seem about my luck. I guess I can't really do anything further to test it. Unless someone else has some ideas?

If I may add my 2 cents to this... If the EGR were stuck open, I'm pretty sure it would set a code "EGR pintle position out of range" or something similar. I was also told recently that the EGR is disabled in PARK, so you wouldn't notice a difference when you unplugged it (I assume it was in park. Kinda hard to unplug something while chasing the car down the road..ohmy.gif)

Also, I agree with BodyByFisher that the TCC solenoid would most likely set a code. I know my car isn't the same as yours, but I have a TCC engagement problem and it sets a code EVERY time I get to about 40-45 mph unless I really lay into the gas as I'm accelerating. I've never noticed a shudder with mine, just that the RPM's go up and I lose some gas mileage. The guy across the street from me has a 1997 Deville Concours with the same problem and same symptoms as me, and his throws a code at him too.

There must be another possibility that we are overlooking here....I'll do some searching and see if I can find anything related.

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At least we are narrowing it down a little. We know the coils are good.

BBF, yep, there are no codes at all anywhere. Very first Cadillac I've ever owned without any codes.

The P0741 code popped up once for a second and I reset the PCM and it never came back. For the moment being, I'm not even going to factor that into my diagnosis.

I took my father-in-law on a test drive of the car to see what he thinks. He used to work for a chevy dealership back in the 80's and early 90's. He thinks my description of a "shudder" isn't very accurate. He thinks it should be called more of a surge. He said he has never come across a GM torque converter that has shuddered, but he has ridden in Fords that have a bad torque converter and he said it feels nothing like it. He said that a bad torque converter will give more of a clatter or a sharp jerking motion rather than a smooth surge sort of motion.

He said he'd put money on it that it's the EGR or maybe the plugs, but he for sure thinks it is NOT the torque converter. I asked him why it kept doing it when I unplugged the EGR and he said when they first came out with the electronic EGRs they would stay wide open if you unplugged them. I mentioned it only does it with the torque converter and he said it's just due to the light load.

Now I know that it would probably set a code, but could it be that there is a mechanical failure in the EGR to cause it to stick open further than normal?

How does it run when you get on it pretty good... say you are running along about 40 and "STAND ON IT"

Does the transmission kick down to a lower gear and does it then accelerate smoothly... with no bucking and jerking?

If the answer to that is yes...

When you are on the highway at 60 / 70 Mph... just cruising along...is it smooth at that speed?

Or is it only at around 40 to 45 mph that it is acting up?

Jim,

I haven't tested what you said yet, but I have floored it when it has done it and it has no problem getting up and going, no slippage, no hesitation, nothing. Scares the living crap out of me!! I'm used to my 4.9L now and these things are crazy!

It does it anywhere from 28-65 (possibly over, I don't usually drive over 65).

So, I'm thinking about finding a used EGR to test it with or possibly checking out the plugs.

What do you think I should start with?

-Dusty-

2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles

1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles

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Well, I swapped out all the coils, one by one, with the new coil and the problem persisted. I pulled one of the plugs to see what brand it was and what kind of shape it was in. It was AC Delco and it looked brand new. Still had the platnium tip and everything.

I also unplugged the EGR and tested. I figured if there isn't EGR blowing in there and it's an igntion problem, it should change. It didn't change a bit. Or maybe the EGR is stuck open...

Now I'm starting to get worried that it is a mechanical failure of the torque converter again. That does seem about my luck. I guess I can't really do anything further to test it. Unless someone else has some ideas?

If I may add my 2 cents to this... If the EGR were stuck open, I'm pretty sure it would set a code "EGR pintle position out of range" or something similar. I was also told recently that the EGR is disabled in PARK, so you wouldn't notice a difference when you unplugged it (I assume it was in park. Kinda hard to unplug something while chasing the car down the road..ohmy.gif)

Also, I agree with BodyByFisher that the TCC solenoid would most likely set a code. I know my car isn't the same as yours, but I have a TCC engagement problem and it sets a code EVERY time I get to about 40-45 mph unless I really lay into the gas as I'm accelerating. I've never noticed a shudder with mine, just that the RPM's go up and I lose some gas mileage. The guy across the street from me has a 1997 Deville Concours with the same problem and same symptoms as me, and his throws a code at him too.

There must be another possibility that we are overlooking here....I'll do some searching and see if I can find anything related.

I unplugged it and then did a test drive with it unplugged to see if it changed. I don't think it would be the solenoid either. If it was anything to do with the torque converter, it would be the torque converter itself failing, not the solenoid. Because like you guys said, it would throw a code.

Maybe the EGR is stuck open...but not all the way to set a code? Who knows...

-Dusty-

2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles

1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles

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Rather than replacing the EGR valve, you should try cleaning it first. I can't see anyone spending money when it isn't necessary. The EGR valve has 3 bolts holding it on. take it off, being careful not to break the gasket (unless you have another one to replace it with) and look at the bottom of it. There will be a pintle that looks almost like a bolt/screw. You want to clean that off, then push it in and clean the area around it with carb cleaner or something similar, and a toothbrush or rag. Don't hold it upside down while cleaning it and BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO LET THE CLEANER RUN INTO THE CANISTER. It can ruin the electronics.

Your car has a lot of miles, and if the EGR has never been cleaned then there is a VERY good chance that it needs the carbon cleaned out of it.

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Here is the thread by Kens96 that I was thinking about, he and I went through a LOT of diagnosis finding a stumble in overdrive. I am not sure if this stumble in OD is your SHUDDER, but this would be a good thread to review, the key posts begin at #45 but a full read will be informational, Mike

http://caddyinfo.ipb...showtopic=18568

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Here is the thread by Kens96 that I was thinking about, he and I went through a LOT of diagnosis finding a stumble in overdrive. I am not sure if this stumble in OD is your SHUDDER, but this would be a good thread to review, the key posts begin at #45 but a full read will be informational, Mike

http://caddyinfo.ipb...showtopic=18568

Thanks BBF! I'll read into that quick.

Rather than replacing the EGR valve, you should try cleaning it first. I can't see anyone spending money when it isn't necessary. The EGR valve has 3 bolts holding it on. take it off, being careful not to break the gasket (unless you have another one to replace it with) and look at the bottom of it. There will be a pintle that looks almost like a bolt/screw. You want to clean that off, then push it in and clean the area around it with carb cleaner or something similar, and a toothbrush or rag. Don't hold it upside down while cleaning it and BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO LET THE CLEANER RUN INTO THE CANISTER. It can ruin the electronics.

Your car has a lot of miles, and if the EGR has never been cleaned then there is a VERY good chance that it needs the carbon cleaned out of it.

I can guarantee you this guy never cleaned the EGR because he documented EVERYTHING. I should scan the maintenance booklet for you guys to see what he wrote down. So far it's been helful.

So I should use carb cleaner and a rag or toothbrush, right? And then clean it so that nothing goes inside of it? That should be interesting! I better check to see if Oreilly's has a gasket, just in case. I just checked the price of them a bit ago. YIPES! $222!

-Dusty-

2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles

1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles

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Here is the thread by Kens96 that I was thinking about, he and I went through a LOT of diagnosis finding a stumble in overdrive. I am not sure if this stumble in OD is your SHUDDER, but this would be a good thread to review, the key posts begin at #45 but a full read will be informational, Mike

http://caddyinfo.ipb...showtopic=18568

Thanks BBF! I'll read into that quick.

Rather than replacing the EGR valve, you should try cleaning it first. I can't see anyone spending money when it isn't necessary. The EGR valve has 3 bolts holding it on. take it off, being careful not to break the gasket (unless you have another one to replace it with) and look at the bottom of it. There will be a pintle that looks almost like a bolt/screw. You want to clean that off, then push it in and clean the area around it with carb cleaner or something similar, and a toothbrush or rag. Don't hold it upside down while cleaning it and BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO LET THE CLEANER RUN INTO THE CANISTER. It can ruin the electronics.

Your car has a lot of miles, and if the EGR has never been cleaned then there is a VERY good chance that it needs the carbon cleaned out of it.

I can guarantee you this guy never cleaned the EGR because he documented EVERYTHING. I should scan the maintenance booklet for you guys to see what he wrote down. So far it's been helful.

So I should use carb cleaner and a rag or toothbrush, right? And then clean it so that nothing goes inside of it? That should be interesting! I better check to see if Oreilly's has a gasket, just in case. I just checked the price of them a bit ago. YIPES! $222!

When I got a new gasket for mine it was less than 5$ at Advance Auto. Cleaning it is WAY cheaper than buying a new one. The best way to keep from getting the cleaner in it would probably be to lay it on its side, and spray the cleaner onto the brush or rag instead of directly onto the EGR. I plan on doing mine this weekend because I've been getting a code for it off and on the last week or so. I found a how-to on cleaning it a while back. I'll see if I can find it again and post it here for you.

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I found this on the other forum. It's not the same how-to I found before, and it's not the exact same car, but it should give you a good idea of what you are looking at.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/59077-how-clean-egr-valve.html

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Here is the thread by Kens96 that I was thinking about, he and I went through a LOT of diagnosis finding a stumble in overdrive. I am not sure if this stumble in OD is your SHUDDER, but this would be a good thread to review, the key posts begin at #45 but a full read will be informational, Mike

http://caddyinfo.ipb...showtopic=18568

Wow, that was very interesting. His description of "a fish on a line" was a very accurate description. What tube was he talking about from the EGR? The only tube I see by the EGR is the one going to the exhaust.

I found this on the other forum. It's not the same how-to I found before, and it's not the exact same car, but it should give you a good idea of what you are looking at.

http://www.cadillacf...-egr-valve.html

Thanks Carla! I'm going to be doing a clean tomorrow.

It seems I have a lean mixture from a possible air leak somewhere. So I'm going to be checking for air leaks around the intake, checking vacuum hoses (the evap canister was just replaced) and also cleaning the EGR.

Hopefully I get something fixed. It sure is an experience though. Something to tell the grand kids I guess. "In my day, our cars had explosive fuel called 'gasoline.'"

-Dusty-

2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles

1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles

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I am glad that you might have found that thread helpful, yes, I think he is speaking of the pipe that goes to the exhaust, it was cracked and allowing air into the system leaning it out.

Keep in mind that he also got an improvement from replacing his intake manifold gaskets, but the EGR heat pipe was the problem

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I am glad that you might have found that thread helpful, yes, I think he is speaking of the pipe that goes to the exhaust, it was cracked and allowing air into the system leaning it out.

Keep in mind that he also got an improvement from replacing his intake manifold gaskets, but the EGR heat pipe was the problem

First of all, how would I check to see if the heat tube was leaking? Secondly, where would I find one if it was? Dealer-only item possibly?

He also mentioned that the PCV valve replacement helped. I'm probably due to replace it anyway. Is there two on a Northstar or just one?

-Dusty-

2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles

1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles

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I am glad that you might have found that thread helpful, yes, I think he is speaking of the pipe that goes to the exhaust, it was cracked and allowing air into the system leaning it out.

Keep in mind that he also got an improvement from replacing his intake manifold gaskets, but the EGR heat pipe was the problem

First of all, how would I check to see if the heat tube was leaking? Secondly, where would I find one if it was? Dealer-only item possibly?

He also mentioned that the PCV valve replacement helped. I'm probably due to replace it anyway. Is there two on a Northstar or just one?

Just one, on the rear valve cover.

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OK... you have got me to thinking...

I hate to do that...it usually gives me a headache. :D

If I read your previous post correctly...You said that you BIL described it as more like a surge, not a shudder.

I consider a shudder something that happens very rapidly.

Like when you are cold and you shiver.

Or is it more of a smoother pulsation...maybe like an old man driving but not sure where he is going.

He gives it a little gas...then lets up a little...then gives it little gas again...then lets up again...

Which one of those is it the closest to?

Lets see if we can narrow the terminology down a bit... that way we are all talking about the same thing.

:D ... :D

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Or is it more of a smoother pulsation...maybe like an old man driving but not sure where he is going.

He gives it a little gas...then lets up a little...then gives it little gas again...then lets up again...

:lol::lol:

I never would have thought to describe it that way, but yes! hahaha

It's more or less what you described. Kind of a smooth surge. It isn't fast and it doesn't shake the car or anything. I guess I really messed up when I called it a "shudder." It's really tough putting motions into words, you know? "Bobing" or "gentle head banging" could be another couple ways to describe it.

Sorry I gave you a headache, Jim! :P

-Dusty-

2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles

1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles

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OK... you have got me to thinking...

I hate to do that...it usually gives me a headache. :D

If I read your previous post correctly...You said that you BIL described it as more like a surge, not a shudder.

I consider a shudder something that happens very rapidly.

Like when you are cold and you shiver.

Or is it more of a smoother pulsation...maybe like an old man driving but not sure where he is going.

He gives it a little gas...then lets up a little...then gives it little gas again...then lets up again...

Which one of those is it the closest to?

Lets see if we can narrow the terminology down a bit... that way we are all talking about the same thing.

:D ... :D

Don't feel bad. Thinking usually gives me a headache too...or maybe it's my kids. Hmmm...blink.gif

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You know, I was just thinking about this (haha) and I'm wondering if it's possible for this surging problem to be fuel related. Any one have any thoughts on that?

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It is called the EGR Valve Pipe, I went to Rockauto and it was not listed, I would imagine that it is available from the dealer here is the part see #6

EGRValvePipe.gif

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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OK...now we are getting somewhere...maybe. :D

If it is a repetitive, smooth, surge... I think we can eliminate the torque converter.

I don't think it can do that.

Since you do not have any codes... this might get tricky to figure out.

If it was a misfire...it would throw a P0300 code.

If you had a big vacuum leak...you would get o2 sensor codes.

A small vacuum leak might not throw a code, but could cause driveability issues.

If it was running rich ...due to a bad or leaking injector, you would also get o2 sensor codes.

One thing you might try... to check for a vacuum leak... get a spray can of brake cleaner.

With the engine idling... Spray it around and under the throttle body.

Also spray it around the edges of the intake manifold.

If you have a vacuum leak...you will hear the RPM increase.

I am also kinda wondering about crankshaft sensors.

I am pretty sure that 2000 to 2003 had a bad batch of sensors.

I don't know about a 1999.

Maybe Body by Fisher, Ranger or "SOMEONE" more knowledgeable than me, will chime in on the crank sensor problem.

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OK...now we are getting somewhere...maybe. :D

If it is a repetitive, smooth, surge... I think we can eliminate the torque converter.

I don't think it can do that.

Since you do not have any codes... this might get tricky to figure out.

If it was a misfire...it would throw a P0300 code.

If you had a big vacuum leak...you would get o2 sensor codes.

A small vacuum leak might not throw a code, but could cause driveability issues.

If it was running rich ...due to a bad or leaking injector, you would also get o2 sensor codes.

One thing you might try... to check for a vacuum leak... get a spray can of brake cleaner.

With the engine idling... Spray it around and under the throttle body.

Also spray it around the edges of the intake manifold.

If you have a vacuum leak...you will hear the RPM increase.

I am also kinda wondering about crankshaft sensors.

I am pretty sure that 2000 to 2003 had a bad batch of sensors.

I don't know about a 1999.

Maybe Body by Fisher, Ranger or "SOMEONE" more knowledgeable than me, will chime in on the crank sensor problem.

In MY experience with crank sensor issues (I've owned one car that had a bad one, and driven another) it caused more like a complete cutoff or loss of power initially, not surging. It then turned into stalling and very hard starting (the one I owned quit starting all together). Also, in both cases, it threw a code and turned on the SES light when it reached the point of noticeable drive-ability problems. Both cars were GM, but neither a cadillac. One was a Buick, the other an Oldsmobile. Not saying it CAN'T be the problem. Just sharing my experience.

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You have no idea how relieved I am that it is more than likely not a torque converter.

Jim, you stole the keys right from my keyboard. Instead of brake cleaner, I was going to use starting fluid, but yeah I was going to spray around looking for leaks. It's obviously something minor. Keep in mind----it only does it when it's WARM (I will double check this tomorrow, but I'm sure it is)! That's why I'm kind of looking towards EGR.

BBF, I can't imagine how much that would be from the dealer, if they carry it anymore. Our Cadillac dealer was taken away when GM downsized, so the nearest one is 100 miles away. I wonder if gmpartsdirect.com would have it. That's definitely the pipe I was thinking of though.

Carla, I don't think it is directly fuel related because I have filled up once or twice since I have bought it and it gas in it from a different station when I bought it.

Think we can get it fixed by the weekend? Yeah...I think so! :D

-Dusty-

2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles

1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles

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You have no idea how relieved I am that it is more than likely not a torque converter.

Jim, you stole the keys right from my keyboard. Instead of brake cleaner, I was going to use starting fluid, but yeah I was going to spray around looking for leaks. It's obviously something minor. Keep in mind----it only does it when it's WARM (I will double check this tomorrow, but I'm sure it is)! That's why I'm kind of looking towards EGR.

BBF, I can't imagine how much that would be from the dealer, if they carry it anymore. Our Cadillac dealer was taken away when GM downsized, so the nearest one is 100 miles away. I wonder if gmpartsdirect.com would have it. That's definitely the pipe I was thinking of though.

Carla, I don't think it is directly fuel related because I have filled up once or twice since I have bought it and it gas in it from a different station when I bought it.

Think we can get it fixed by the weekend? Yeah...I think so! :D

By fuel related I meant the fuel delivery system, not the actual fuel. I apologize. I should have made that a little more clear.

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By fuel related I meant the fuel delivery system, not the actual fuel. I apologize. I should have made that a little more clear.

Whoops, my bad! I read a little too much into it I guess! :P

-Dusty-

2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles

1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles

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