97 Deville No Start

[Ronniels]

I could just burn the car...

Not tagged... Not insured...

Nah...I'll give it another week or two, I'll fix it...

[BodybyFisher]

Yep, been that route. Was 16, didn't know any better, grabbed an HEI wire that apparantly had a crack in the protective sleeve. Never do that again Don't know what hurt worse, the shock or nailing my head on the hood when I jumped!

I grew up, I have a tester now! Just waiting for my son to get to where I can have him do what my dad used to do to me and my brother, "...hey, here hold this screwdriver while I turn the key..."

A note on the gaskets, I was going by a photo from Advanced Auto. It's not the pan style, just the basic 2 piece like a Chevy.

Just don't know why they are $63 at Advance, $62 at A.Z. and only 9.50 at the GM dealership.... oh well...

If you have never seen the sparks jump wild on these ignitions, its scary, way bigger than the HEI. I made the mistake of leaving a spark plug wire disconnected from a coil on my Monte Carlo, and the sparks jumped 4 inches in a 360 degree unpredictable frenzy. I later read never to do that as the sparks can damage electrical devices

Have patience, you are making progress. You will get it.

Did you check your ignition wires with an ohm meter?

I would also do a compression test. If the plug is good, compression is good, ignition wire good, then you might consider that its a bad injector. You could also check the resistance of your injectors, and see if one sticks out..

[Logan]

Hmmm...dumped auction car...no start.

You have spark. 'Fuel getting to cylinders.'

Any chance it has a used engine?

In the past, have been called out to some GM no starts. They had used engines. The problem with used engines, is junkyard typically cuts the fuel lines during removal, then the engine sits some where for 6 months.

During this 6 months, air moisture seeps into the dry fuel line, causing the injectors to rust up. They may sort of work..but this car had been sitting awhile too.

This exact problem has been listed before on used no start engines.

Fix is to reuse the old fuel line and injectors. You dont have those.

*Have you tried spraying starting fluid during cranking to see if the car will catch for 5-10 seconds?

*Could be rotten gas, water in gas, or a tank full of pee. Diesel? Does the stuff burn? Take a sample.

Fixed a '87 Mercedes 280 about 10 years ago. Sat for 4 years. Rotton gas, tires shot, fuel gauge sender shot, needed 3 fuel pumps to fix the bad gas. 1st fuel pump was locked up. 2nd pump lasted awhile. 3rd pump was the fix.

My wife drove it a couple of years.

Still on the road today, been told looking better then new.

[BodybyFisher]

By the way, now that you have been able to start the car, are you getting any codes?

[Ronniels]

Not checking wire at the coil...no way.. I mean at the plug end!!... No, I've seen the spark jump from an HEI, don't want to even try that with this one. (Although it's a pretty cool thing to see...kinda like putting tin foil in the microwave)

It is pouring rain, I am off tomorrow so I will pull each wire and do a continuity test. Will also try using the orginal coils.

As for replacement engine, definitely a virgin car. It is running now, just missing.

As for compression test, gotta find my hose, I know where my gauge is. I will get that accomplished ASAP. If the plugs and coils don't tell me anything, I'll let her set until I find the hose part of my comp. tester... (I'll start diggin thru boxes)

For a resistance test on the injectors. Since most of them are definitely working, I'll be able to figure what the range shoud be.

But, where do I want to measure? Between the two wires?

As for the lifter. I had to put a new engine in my wifes Maxima and the junkyard engine only had 6k on it, but had been sitting on a shelf for 4 years.

Anyway, it had a lifter I could not get to shut up. I finally decided I would get around to putting a new set in it. (after 4 or 5 days of driving) But the day I was off to buy a set of lifters and gaskets, etc. It started getting a little quieter on the way to the store and shut up by the time I got in the parkling lot. Smooth as silk. She put another 40k on it before getting rid of the car, never made a single tapping noise again.

So I am going to sit back and believe the caddy and her lifter will do the same

But in all honesty, if it does not shut up with in a very short time...like a couple of miles after the miss is fixed, I'll dig in and take care of it.

[Ronniels]

Oh yeah, everytime I clear the codes and let it run a couple of minutes I get back a p0101 and p0300. But restart it, and the p0101 goes to history everytime and the p0300 stays current.

[BodybyFisher]

I would not leave the connector on the injector and back probe it, I would disconnect the connector and test the injector coil resistence with an ohm meter.

P0101 - Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor Performance, when I get a chance, Ill look at the manual for an explanation

[Ronniels]

Ohms for plug wires are all consistent (15.5)... Unplugged injectors and tested, they are 6 @ 12.9 1 @ 12.8 and 1 @ 12.5 So I am assuming they are all close enough.

Reset codes, ran car again, no p0101 just the p0300

Now, keep in mind that when I bought the car, the 2 brothers who picked it up at auction said it would not fire, so they sprayed the injector/carb cleaner in it to try to get it to start.

After cleaning that mess out I was still having a no fire situation. Not even trying to hit at all but acting like it was out of time.

Now, I then dropped in a replacement ICM with coils and she immediately started but with a miss.

Here's where it gets strange...After checking all 8 coils and all having the same readings I decided why not drop the original ICM and coils and see what happens.

It started right up but with the same miss.

So apparantly the ICM was not the problem. But what did I do to get it started? I did not do anything at all between the time I ordered the CM until I installed it. And no, did not happen to clean a ground or anything, before I even started this thread I had already removed the ICM, checked for grease and/or corrosion and re-installed it knowing it was clean. So tthat was not it.

I do have the replacement PCM still. I think I will put that in and see what or if it changes anything with the miss. Raining again, so ran out of time to do the compression check and definitely don't look forward to pulling the old PCM back out. That was a bear to get to the 1st time.

[Ronniels]

UPDATE: (In case any one cares )

Found the rest of my compression gauge and checked things out...Good news, It may simply be a stuck valve !!!

Bad news...it may be more than just stuck... anyway, rain has once again cut down on my Cadillac repair time, so have to wait until Friday.

But, any suggestion on making this easier or what to wach for in order to remove the front valve (cam) cover?

(#4 has ZERO compression)

[BodybyFisher]

UPDATE: (In case any one cares )

Found the rest of my compression gauge and checked things out...Good news, It may simply be a stuck valve !!!

Bad news...it may be more than just stuck... anyway, rain has once again cut down on my Cadillac repair time, so have to wait until Friday.

But, any suggestion on making this easier or what to wach for in order to remove the front valve (cam) cover?

(#4 has ZERO compression)

WOW....Now, is it rings or valves?. If you shoot oil in the cylinder and the compression picks up, its rings, I believe. We have seen instances of rings getting caked with carbon.

[Ronniels]

Definitely a valve. Should have at least a little bit even if it was the rings, plugs tried the oil thing already.

Just wish I had not had so much trouble finding the rest of my compression tester. Oh well, better later than never, plus now I know for certain all of the electrical parts are good anyway. So some good came out of the searching

Now to get that valve cover off....

[Ranger]

To get the front cam cover off you'll need a P/S pulley remover/installer to pull the water pump drive pulley. DO NOT use a 3 prong gear puller. It's plastic and you'll destroy it.

[KHE]

You will also need a metric bolt and a stack of washers to reinstall the pulley once your done with the work. Do not hammer it on or be tempted to hammer it off and replace the pulley or you will damage the camshaft.

[Ronniels]

Thanks for the heads up! I'll head to Auto Zone later and rent one... Couldn't just simply be, "...remove bolts and lift upwards..." could it?

Am I going to need to remove the upper radiator hose that lays across the cover? Or is it going to be able to slide by?

[BodybyFisher]

You should be able to push the upper radiator hose aside. Good Luck with this

[Ronniels]

Once I removed the cover (not sure what it is called...on rear wheel drive cars it is the radiator or fan shroud) Anyway, I seee I have plenty of room around the hose. (then it started raining on me)

Now I have found a loose plug.... I am assuming it is for the fans (since it is coming out of thier wiring harness) but can not see the female part, just the loose male part.

And the upper radiator hose has a sticker, it is new.

I hope this does not mean it has been overheated....

Oh well, sun is out...back to the driveway!

[Ronniels]

Not sure how to post a photo....but I definitely have a stuck valve

And need to buy a front exhaust cam and a set of lifters while I'm at it.

If this was not such a clean car, if didn't ride so nice, and if the mileage wasn't just right...

Well, with the new issues, I'll have to order stuff and put her on the back burner again.

I really do appreciate the help I have been recieving.

Thanks!

ps> Sometimes you just want to find a random engineer and smack them for things like that last valve cover bolt!!

[BodybyFisher]

Explain what you mean, do you have a collapsed lifter on that cylinder?, is the CAM lobe damaged or wiped?

You can post photos by opening an account at photobucket.com uploading the photos there and linking them here (use the IMAGE link), Mike

[KHE]

Please elaborate on what you found - was the cam lobe bad? Was the valve spring bad? Anyway, we'd like to know what the cause of the no-compression was.

[Ronniels]

Sorry about that... Well, one of the exhaust valves on #4 is stuck open...about halfway from what I can tell.

So essentially, it is stuck hard enough that the cam beat on the lifter long enough to bust a hole in the top of the lifter.

With it then having a jagged edge, it has very lightly scratched the lobe. The spring and retainer are unscathed, plus unattached to the valve. The keeperss are not where they should be.

I am going to replace the cam so I do not take a chance of scratching up a new lifter. Plus with a new cam I will have to replace all 8 lifters anyway.

As for the broken pieces, they are all there still in the valve train area. Kinda like a puzzle, I can re-assemble the lifter and see that I have all of it.

Plus the pieces are big enough that if they had made it to the oil pan they wouldn't have gotten past the pump strainer/screen anyway, so I should be o.k. there. Just sucks that I can only find it thru GM, a 2000 & up is $280 (list) Of course mine (1997) is $497 list (plus lifters) thru GMDirect it is only $268... But still...for just one camshaft, ouch! So I will keep an eye out for a used one in a junkyard or ebay for a bit before getting a new one. In the mean time I am going to work on loosening that valve and getting the spring back in place.

I will get an account on photobucket and get a picture posted in the next day or two. It's dark out right now and I want to get a good picture of the lifter on it's own. The photo I already took is with it still underneath the camshaft and that one just doesn't really tell the story just thru the photo.

This is a first for me...never seen anything like this happen to a lifter except for having something blow up while taking a lifter or two with it. But this is a running driving car. Oh well...

Thru all of this, I am thinking my no start issue was the crap that had been put in the cylinders...So I want to know why the previous owner coud not get it to fire before they sprayed the cleaner into the engine...before they fouled up the plugs... One stuck valve would not do that.

And also, when I first was playing with this, the fuel at the schrader valve and on the plugs had the stale gas smell. But not at the gas cap. Now after having driven the car and having it run, the fuel at the front of the car smells fresh. So I am willing to bet the guys I got it from had already put fresh fuel in the tank. So that is one less problem to worry about.

[Ronniels]

Here is what is left of the lifter and you can see the scratched lobe.

Found a cam & lifters for $50 that are in good shape.

Have a question, how do I get the sprockets back on with the chain?

Thanks

[KHE]

Does the valve move freely once the work components have been removed? If not, the repair will self destruct in short order once it is reassembled.

You are goung to need to release the hydraulic tensioner for that chain which will require removal of the front cover. Be sure to note the position of the old cam and mark the relationship of the sprocket to the old cam before disassembly. Get the new cam in EXACTLY the same position as the old one before installing the sprocket on the new cam. I would also mark the chain and sprocket in the timing cover area as well to make sure nothing slips.

[Ronniels]

Remove the front cover...was afraid of that. More Fun...

I am going to make sure the valve is free first, no worries there!

Marked both cams in multiple places as well as the sprockets before pulling the cam out.

What is the best tool for re-installing the spring on this particular head. (without removing the head of course)

[KHE]

There is a spring compressor that is used while the engine is in the car - I think the number is J-24388 but can't be certain. It is a Kent-Moore number and Kent-Moore tools are very pricey... It is possible the local auto parts store will have an equivalent.

By the way, how are you keeping the valve from falling into the cylinder? Is it jammed from the damage?

[Ronniels]

The valve is stuck, and from measuring it, it seams to be only half way between full down and full up...(compared to the other valves that are either fully open or fully closed based on there stem position) So it is sitting still on it's own. I have not tried to loosen it yet.

Like an idiot, when I saw the damage, I forgot to make sure that piston was all the way up in case the valve falls...and after pulling the cam, I looked, and it is all the way down. So I need to reinstall the cam (gotta pull the front cover off to get to the tensioner) and get that piston up, and then I will work on loosening the valve. That way if the valve drops, I will still be able to lift it back up, get some airpressure in the cylinder to hold her closed and re-install the spring.

I looked for a Kent Moore spring compressor for the Northstar, no luck so far. Figure if I can see one I can use a similiar looking non-Northstar specific one.

Also, to answer the question, It appears that the stuck valve caused the prob as opposed to it bieng a result of the damage.