97 Deville No Start

[BodybyFisher]

If you are getting lots of solvent BE CAREFUL, your intake could be full of solvent, if it sucks into ONE cylinder you COULD hydrolock your engine. Try I know this sounds NUTS but I would consider pulling the intake manifold to get the solvent out. What a-holes they were. BE CAREFUL...

It sounds like you are on track

[JimD]

And there "could be" O2 sensor and catalytic converter contamination.

[Texas Jim]

If you have 4 cylinders not firing check the fuses. I am not positive, but if I recall correctly there are two injector fuses. i don't recall if they are for each bank or are devided some other way. just a thought.

As Ranger said above.... there are two fuses.

One fuse controls injectors 1,3,5 and 7.

The other one controls 2,4,6 and 8.

Which 4 of your plugs are not firing?

Are they all on one side of the engine or just scattered out?

[Ronniels]

They are all firing, the wet cylinders are 1,3 4,8

[Delta]

Man, you guys need to sit down and have a beer, you deserve it!!!!!!!

[Ronniels]

OK, got her started on 5 cylinders...let it run, build some heat and then sit as the other 3 evaporated dry. Put the other 3 plugs in after about 10 miutes, starts right up, drove it..WoW!! Lots of power, easily spun the tires and I definitely was not trying to. Smoked like a diesel train for a few minutes.

Now, I have a miss, so will check the plugs after she cools all the way back down (being careful since it's aluminum) and I must have a vacuum leak. The brakes are hard as a rock. But it's drivable, no knocking, transmission feels strong, and lots of power even with the miss and possible vacuum leak. The A/C even works, just not super cold.

Keep in mind, I did buy this with not knowing anyone who had ever heard or seen it run. So I could have had a real junker even after all this diagnostics and cleaning work.

Nice car though.

Again, Thanks!!

[BodybyFisher]

OK, got her started on 5 cylinders...let it run, build some heat and then sit as the other 3 evaporated dry. Put the other 3 plugs in after about 10 miutes, starts right up, drove it..WoW!! Lots of power, easily spun the tires and I definitely was not trying to. Smoked like a diesel train for a few minutes.

Now, I have a miss, so will check the plugs after she cools all the way back down (being careful since it's aluminum) and I must have a vacuum leak. The brakes are hard as a rock. But it's drivable, no knocking, transmission feels strong, and lots of power even with the miss and possible vacuum leak. The A/C even works, just not super cold.

Keep in mind, I did buy this with not knowing anyone who had ever heard or seen it run. So I could have had a real junker even after all this diagnostics and cleaning work.

Nice car though.

Again, Thanks!!

So it appears that it WAS the ICM?, did you determine that?, it seems like it was because it acted differently once you installed it

[Ronniels]

I am assuming it was...I did not change anything else, it is as I bought it minus the carb cleaner plus the new plugs...after it is running smooth, I think I will try the original ICM just to check.

The computer does say the MAF is not functioning, P0101, now that it runs.

[BodybyFisher]

Do you have the snorkle on between the PCM and the throttle body, and check that the the connector is attach to the sensor in that snorkle

[Ronniels]

YTep, all hooked up. When i 1st bought it, the MAF plug was not plugged up, but everything ealse was secure. I have it all back together porperly and hooked up. Even checked the MAF while I had it off and it's clean, free of carbon or corrosion.

Trying to track down my mess now. Wondering if one the the new (used) coils that came with the ICM could be bad. Had three dirty plugs (black carbon only) and they were from the three cylinders that I had cleaned last. Got them shiny again, reinstalled and still have a miss. I have a spark tester, I'll check each of those later. The other 5 plugs are very clean when I pulled them, so I do have it narrowed down.

Plus it is still running on old stinky gas, so that'll account for something.

I know I need to change the oil. But it is maybe 1/4 of a qt. low if that. So any ideas why (could be related to the miss) I hear what sounds like a lifter ticking. Normally I know where to look, but being the Northstar, I've learned best to ask before wearing myself out looking.

Oil pressure is assumed to be good, display is not showing any issues.

I'll change the oil before going back on the road with it. Only drove about 2 miles today. Will just test and tune in the driveway this weekend. Also, the reservoir is full of clean looking orange Dex-Cool.

[BodybyFisher]

Check your ignition wires with an ohm meter, do not use any grease in the boots. Change the oil, carb cleaner or fuel might have thinned it out, and drive it a couple of days, it might straighten out, could be an injector or lifter. Do you hear any lifter noise?

[Ronniels]

well, it does sound like a lifter, maybe 2 at the most. Of course I still have the cover off and the little injectors are juct clicking away...then again, if an injector is not firing, it could be one of my clean plugs since no fuel would mean no carbon...hmmm

I'll go ahead and change the oil...just have to let her sit a few days. Too much going on this weekend and my weekday schedule changes Monday, so it'll be one afternoon this week before getting to the oil... Do I stick witht he 5-30? I am in South Florida. And it's 7.5 qts right?

The oil smells o.k. but is definitely dirty, not sludgy, just very dark, but not burnt or gassy smelling.

Also, when I took on the road this morn. Could feel the mess real bad in the driveway, does not want to move around easy in the driveway, no power. But give it some fuel on the road, and smooth as silk. What's the best way to check the injectors safely?

[BodybyFisher]

Well, try 10W30, 5W is too thin for your car with rubbing element lifters, if you had the roller lifters that began in 2000 that would be ok.

If you hear ticking its possible that a couple of your lifters are not pumped up. Don't run it again until you change the oil, I think I suggested changing it earlier in this thread. That solvent will KILL viscosity, it might be thinner than you realize.. Keep in mind how wet your cylinders were. IF I were YOU, I would take an oiler and pull the plugs and give each cylinder a shot of oil, the walls have been washed with that garbage they put in.

[BodybyFisher]

By the way, I didn't mention it above but it is very possible that the carb cleaner seeped past the rings and into the crankcase. I would hope that they were smart enough to use O2 sensor safe carb cleaner, but I imagine all carb cleaner these days must be O2 sensor safe

See this thread

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tech-gen...ngine-help.html

[Ronniels]

ok, no more starting until I change the oil...No prob..as long as it sat, I am sure it had plenty of time to do some seepage.

Just a note though, after letting her run some more (before reading this last message) the MAF p0101 code is no longer current, just history. The only current is a p0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected. But will hold off on that until changing the oil.

[BodybyFisher]

ok, no more starting until I change the oil...No prob..as long as it sat, I am sure it had plenty of time to do some seepage.

Just a note though, after letting her run some more (before reading this last message) the MAF p0101 code is no longer current, just history. The only current is a p0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected. But will hold off on that until changing the oil.

Check your ignition wires. Keep in mind that poor compression can cause P0300. That is why I suggested putting a couple of shots of oil in each cylinder, you are metal to metal now, no oil has been up for quite some time and you washed the H out of those cylinders with CARB cleaner.

If this persists, you would probably do a compression test.

When you start it, let it warm and take it for a long high speed run to get it hot, as long as the TEMP looks stable. Fill the tank and put a small bottle of TECHRON in to clean the valves and injectors

[BodybyFisher]

PS, since we don't have a scope, consider that the ICM and coils you have came off a car that had problems One of the coils could be bad, test them. If you have a NEW coil, swap it into each position and see if it makes a difference. Given the age of your engine, at some point if this persists you might replace the intake manifold gaskets, see KenD's recent thread, he has a 96 and his manifold gaskets were cracked.

How rough is it running?

See this thread, we were playing with testing coils for awhile, see if yours fall in these ranges

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16967

[KHE]

You mentioned the gas smells old and stinky - as in sour gas? If so, I'd suggest siphoning as much of the gas out of the tank and then filling it with fresh fuel. The old sour gas may have been contributing to the hard starting and may have plugged up an injector.

[Ronniels]

OK, Hurricane threat gone, rain finally stopped, so I changed the oil.

What came out did look a bit thin. Let her idle in the driveway, changed the RPM's a little, never got the lifter noise gone. But at least now it just sounds like only one, not multiple like before. Waited til she got about 197 degrees and shut her off. Still have a miss. Reset PCM codes, still getting a p0300, but definitely idling smoother than at first last week. Feels like it is just one cylinder not multiple like before. Going to go get some Marvel oil or some kind of upper engine lube for the cylinders. As for the lifter. Just sounds like a collapsed lifter. How hard are they to get to on the Northstar? And I am also going to check the intake gasket. Is it much of an issue to get to? Is it one of those metal pan gaskets like on the old Oldsmobile & AMC V-8's? That's what the photo at Advance Auto looked like.

[KHE]

The intake manifold gasket is a plastic/silicone combination gasket. The gasket you describe sounds like a small block Chevy intake gasket. The intake is not too bad to remove - you need to disconnect the fuel lines, etc.

At this point, it may make sense to have a shop hook up a Tech-2 and determine what cylinder is missing. That would really narrow the search.

[Ronniels]

Chevy's have two seperate gaskets, one for each mating surface, and then a thin rubber strip for front and back of the intale, Olds and AMC's have a single large pan looking gasket. Looks like a Pontiac with the intake removed. (although Pontiacs had an actual seperate valley pan and a seperate gasket for each mating surface.

Concerning the Marvel Oil, I am not putting it in the crankcase, I am going to run it thru the intake for the upper cylinder lube benefit.

As for the miss, I am going to just pull individual wires, and whichever one does not make the car run rougher will be the culprit.

[BodybyFisher]

BE CAREFUL pulling plug wires, you can get knocked on your butt, PLUS, the sparks jump around wildly, use a spark test device they are cheap, do NOT let the sparks jump wild. The spark test device, you connect the spark plug wire to it, and it connects to ground.

[lothos]

On my 1995 at least, you can turn off the injectors one by one using the dash computer. Would that help in this case instead of pulling wires?

[Ronniels]

Yep, been that route. Was 16, didn't know any better, grabbed an HEI wire that apparantly had a crack in the protective sleeve. Never do that again Don't know what hurt worse, the shock or nailing my head on the hood when I jumped!

I grew up, I have a tester now! Just waiting for my son to get to where I can have him do what my dad used to do to me and my brother, "...hey, here hold this screwdriver while I turn the key..."

A note on the gaskets, I was going by a photo from Advanced Auto. It's not the pan style, just the basic 2 piece like a Chevy.

Just don't know why they are $63 at Advance, $62 at A.Z. and only 9.50 at the GM dealership.... oh well...

[BodybyFisher]

On my 1995 at least, you can turn off the injectors one by one using the dash computer. Would that help in this case instead of pulling wires?

Yes, it would, but you can't do that with 96 forward. Only 95 back can do that with OBD1, its a great feature to have you are right.