97 Deville No Start

[Ronniels]

Good fuel, good fuel pressure, clean spark, coils, plugs & wires all checked.

Will not try to fire. Fuel is reaching plugs.

Acts like timing is off slightly when trying to turn over.

Tower to tower is 5.8 ohms exactly on all 4 coils.

What resistance am I looking for on the Cam sensor?

Since I have spark, I assume it is not the Crank sensors anyway. But since the Cam sensor affects the injector timing, thought I would look there next.

Also, any other ideas of what to check next?

Yes, battery is fully charged.

Thanks!!

[BodybyFisher]

Have you pulled your DTC codes? If not, pull your codes it might be obvious what is wrong

[Ronniels]

No codes...forgot to mention that. I have also installed a new PCM, with the old one I would get a backfire only when letting off the key. With the new one, exactly the same except no backfire.

I had no codes with the old one either (just a couple of stored body codes referring to interior lamps)

Need to throw in the fact that bought the car not running out of an indoor storage building auction and can not get in touch with the previous owner. So I do not know any history.

Also, it has 82k actual miles.

[KHE]

What is the actual fuel pressure at the fuel rail?

[Ronniels]

Do not know the PSI, but it is enough for the injectors to spray. Have pulled all plugs (more than once) and they will have fresh fuel on them after cranking the engine over.

[KHE]

Do not know the PSI, but it is enough for the injectors to spray. Have pulled all plugs (more than once) and they will have fresh fuel on them after cranking the engine over.

You need to get a fuel pressure gage hooked up and read the actual fuel pressure. 5 psi will make the injectors dribble fuel but it takes 45 psi to make the engine run...

[Ronniels]

ok, will do... Did not think about that..dribble would be no good, but need the pressure to get the actual spray then?

[PAUL T]

Does it crank but no start? If so check the Fuel Pressure Regulator. Pull the rubber hose off and see if gas is present when key is on. If there is gas, change the FPR.

[Ronniels]

Does it crank but no start? If so check the Fuel Pressure Regulator. Pull the rubber hose off and see if gas is present when key is on. If there is gas, change the FPR.

OK, Have three hoses...in, out and what looks like a vacuum line (on top) Which one are you referring to and do you mean that with the key in the 'ON' position, the particular hose is supposed to be empty?

Thanks

[BodybyFisher]

Does it crank but no start? If so check the Fuel Pressure Regulator. Pull the rubber hose off and see if gas is present when key is on. If there is gas, change the FPR.

OK, Have three hoses...in, out and what looks like a vacuum line (on top) Which one are you referring to and do you mean that with the key in the 'ON' position, the particular hose is supposed to be empty?

Thanks

Remove the vacuum hose. The key has two positions, Key ON and Key START, he just means to turn the key to the ON position. You can also start the engine and look for spitting of fuel

HOWEVER, that said, it sounds like you have the old style fuel rail. Is your fuel rail stainless steel or plastic fiber and hoses? Your fuel rail might have been included in the fuel rail recall, take a photo if you can. I will try to dig up the recall for you.

[BodybyFisher]

Here is the recall, 97 was included, check out the VIN numbers and years, if you don't have a stainless steel rail, you need to get it replaced as soon as possible before your existing rail bursts and causes a fire. Take a photo if you can. Mike

Product Safety - Engine Fuel Rail-Replace #04014C - (Oct 1, 2004)

04014C -- Engine Fuel Rail - Replace

1995-1997 Cadillac DeVille Concours, Seville, Eldorado

1996-1997 Cadillac DeVille

Equipped with 4.6L V8 (RPO LD8 - VIN Y; RPO L37 - VIN 9) Engine

1995-1997 Oldsmobile Aurora

Equipped with 4.0L V8 (RPO L47 - VIN C) Engine

THIS BULLETIN IS BEING REVISED TO ADD 1997 CADILLAC MODEL VEHICLES. PLEASE DISCARD SAFETY RECALL BULLETIN NUMBER 04014B, DATED SEPTEMBER 2004.

Condition

General Motors has decided that a defect which relates to motor vehicle safety exists in all 1995-1997 Cadillac DeVille Concours, Seville and Eldorado, 1996-1997 Cadillac DeVille; and 1995-1997 Oldsmobile Aurora model vehicles. These vehicles have a condition in which the original equipment nylon tubing used in the fuel rail construction may degrade and crack. Additionally, the 1995 Oldsmobile Aurora uses a unique underhood fuel return line that may crack at unusually high rates. Cracking of the fuel rail can result in a fuel leak into the engine compartment. The operator may experience fuel odor and possibly engine stalling due to loss of fuel pressure to the engine. If this event were to occur, and if an ignition source were present, an engine compartment fire could occur.

Correction

Dealers are to inspect and, if necessary, replace the engine fuel rail with a new stainless steel fuel rail. Dealers will also replace the chassis fuel lines on 1995 Oldsmobile Aurora model vehicles.

Vehicles Involved

Involved are all 1995-1997 Cadillac DeVille Concours, Seville and Eldorado, 1996-1997 Cadillac DeVille; and 1995-1997 Oldsmobile Aurora model vehicles; and built within these VIN breakpoints:

Year Division Model From Through

1995 Cadillac DeVille Concours SU200002 SU309069

1995 Cadillac Seville SU800001 SU838932

1995 Cadillac Eldorado SU600001 SU625230

1996 Cadillac DeVille TU200001 TU311280

1996 Cadillac Seville TU800001 TU838241

1996 Cadillac Eldorado TU600004 TU620816

1997 Cadillac DeVille VU200001 VU830483

1997 Cadillac Seville VU800001 VU845283

1997 Cadillac Eldorado VU600001 VU833269

1995 Oldsmobile Aurora S4100001 S4147771

1996 Oldsmobile Aurora T4100001 T4124133

1997 Oldsmobile Aurora V4100001 V4127927

Important

Dealers should confirm vehicle eligibility through GMVIS (GM Vehicle Inquiry System) before beginning recall repairs.

For US

For dealers with involved vehicles, a Campaign Initiation Detail Report containing the complete Vehicle Identification Number, customer name and address data has been prepared and will be loaded to the GM DealerWorld, Recall Information website. Dealers that have no involved vehicles currently assigned will not have a report available in GM DealerWorld.

For IPC

For dealers with involved vehicles, a Campaign Initiation Detail Report containing the complete Vehicle Identification Number, customer name and address data has been prepared and is being furnished to involved dealers. Dealers that have no involved vehicles currently assigned will not receive a report with the recall bulletin.

The Campaign Initiation Detail Report may contain customer names and addresses obtained from Motor Vehicle Registration Records. The use of such motor vehicle registration data for any other purpose is a violation of law in several states/provinces/countries. Accordingly, you are urged to limit the use of this report to the follow-up necessary to complete this program.

Parts Information

Parts Pre-Ship Information - For US

Important

An initial supply of parts required to complete this recall will be pre-shipped to involved dealers of record. The pre-shipment for 1995 Cadillacs began the week of July 26, 2004. The pre-shipment for 1996 Cadillacs began the week of August 30, 2004. The pre-shipment for 1997 Cadillacs is scheduled to begin the week of September 20, 2004. The pre-shipment for 1996-97 Oldsmobiles began the week of May 24, 2004. The pre-shipment for 1995 Oldsmobile is scheduled to begin the week of August 23, 2004. All pre-shipments will be approximately 15% of each dealer's involved vehicles. Pre-shipped parts will be charged to dealer's open parts account.

Additional parts, if required, are to be obtained from General Motors Service Parts Operations (GMSPO). Please refer to your "involved vehicles listing" before ordering parts. Normal orders should be placed on a DRO=Daily Replenishment Order. In an emergency situation, parts should be ordered on a CSO=Customer Special Order.

Part Number Description Qty

12583147 Rail Kit, M/Port F/Injn Fuel (1995-96 Cadillac) 1

17800051 Seal Kit, M/Port F/Injr (1995 Cadillac) 1

12583148 Rail Kit, M/Port F/Injn Fuel (1997 Cadillac) 1

17800053 Seal Kit, M/Port F/Injr (1996-97 Cadillac) 1

12583146 Rail Kit, M/Port F/Injn Fuel (1995 Oldsmobile) 1

17800050 Seal Kit, M/Port F/Injr (1995 Oldsmobile) 1

10384811 Pipe Kit, F/Injn Fuel Feed & Rtn (1995 Oldsmobile) 1

12583145 Rail Kit, M/Port F/Injn Fuel (1996-97 Oldsmobile) 1

17800052 Seal Kit, M/Port F/Injr (1996-97 Oldsmobile) 1

8919354 Conduit, Plastic 6 ft

12345579 Grease, Dielectric Silicone (1 oz) As needed

[Ronniels]

No fuel in vac. line...Mine is on the recall list.

One of the first things to do as soon as she is running!

new things checked:

Voltage good at every injector

Hooked an OBD ii scanner, will not talk with scanner.

I re-installed original PCM, still will not talk to the scanner.

Does this mean anything?

Also, where can I buy a pressure gauge? Can only find the little 15 psi gauges for carbs.

Thanks!!

[Ranger]

You can get a fuel pressure gauge at Walmart or almost anyplace that sells auto parts for around $40.

[BodybyFisher]

No fuel in vac. line...Mine is on the recall list.

One of the first things to do as soon as she is running!

new things checked:

Voltage good at every injector

Hooked an OBD ii scanner, will not talk with scanner.

I re-installed original PCM, still will not talk to the scanner.

Does this mean anything?

Also, where can I buy a pressure gauge? Can only find the little 15 psi gauges for carbs.

Thanks!!

Will you PCM dump the codes when you try to retrieve them? Have you tried to swap in a known good ICM?

See this from Autotap.com

What’s causing the no-start? All engines require three things to start and run: spark, fuel, and compression. If any one of these isn’t there, you aren’t going anywhere.

Symptom:

Engine Cranks but Won’t Start

Probable Causes:

Fuel Pump (P0230 to P0233)

PCM (P0600 to P0606)

Crank Sensor (P0355 to P0399) • Fuel Pressure (P0190 to P0194)

Chances are the Check Engine Light is not on, but you may find any of the following codes:

P0230 to P0233 Fuel Pump codes

P0600 to P0606 PCM related codes

P0335 to P0339 Crank Sensor codes

P0190 to P0194 Fuel Pressure Sensor codes

• No spark due to a bad crank position sensor, a faulty ignition module (ICM) or PCM, a problem in the ignition circuit (ignition switch, antitheft system, wiring, etc.), a faulty park/neutral safety switch, a bad ignition coil (only on engines with a single coil ignition), or wet plugs or plug wires (did it rain last night, did you just wash the engine?).

• A less common cause is a worn starter that draws so many amps while cranking the engine that there’s not enough juice left to adequately power the ignition system and fuel injectors. Contributing factors might be a weak battery and/or loose or corroded battery cables.

• No fuel because of a dead fuel pump, bad fuel pump relay, blown fuel pump fuse, plugged fuel filter or line, or failed PCM injector driver circuit or injector power supply relay. Or, the fuel tank might be empty (don’t believe what the gauge is telling you), or the fuel tank might contain contaminated fuel (water or too much alcohol) or the wrong type of fuel (whoops, somebody put in diesel instead of gasoline).

• No compression because the timing belt or chain is broken, the timing belt or chain is loose and jumped out of time, or the overhead camshaft has snapped. A powerful scantool can help isolate the root cause by capturing this information as in Figure 8. The first step is to determine if it’s a spark, fuel, or compression problem. Here’s a quick way to find out which of the three is missing. Remove a plug wire, insert a Phillips screwdriver or spare plug piece of bare wire into the plug wire boot and place the end near the engine block (do not hold the plug wire while cranking the engine unless you want a shocking experience). If there’s a spark when the engine is cranked, it has ignition. The problem is either fuel or compression. If the engine has an overhead cam with a timing belt, loosen the cover over the timing belt and check the belt. If the belt is okay, the problem is no fuel. Listen for the electric fuel pump in the fuel tank to make a buzzing noise when the ignition is turned on (you may have to open the gas cap to hear it). You won’t hear anything if the pump has died. Diagnostics can now be focused on the fuel pump circuit to determine if the pump, relay or wiring is causing the no start. If the relay has voltage but the pump isn’t running, you’ll probably have to drop the fuel tank to check the wiring connector at the pump. If the problem is no spark, anything in the ignition circuit that creates the spark may be at fault. Use your scantool to look for an RPM signal from the Crankshaft Position sensor while cranking the engine. A bad Crankshaft Position sensor is a common cause of no starts. The signal from this sensor goes to the PCM or ignition module that switches the ignition coil(s) on and off. If you have an RPM signal, a bad ignition module or PCM may not be switching the coil(s) on an off. Using a voltmeter, check for voltage at the coils with the key on and while cranking the engine. The voltage should be switching on and off. In ignition systems with a single coil and distributor, a bad coil or a cracked distributor cap or rotor can prevent the spark plugs from firing. On multi-coil distributorless ignition systems and coil-on-plug systems, one coil failure may cause an engine to misfire, but it won't prevent it from starting. What’s causing the no-start? All engines require three things to start and run: spark, fuel and compression. If any one of these isn’t there, you aren’t going anywhere

[Ronniels]

Does anyone know what the resistance range should be for the Cam Sensor and Crank sensor(s) on a 97 Northstar?

[Cadillac Jim]

I can't find it in the 1997 FSM. I would use a DMM and call them good if the resistance was between 10 Ohms and 10,000 Ohms. I understand that the crank and cam sensors rarely give trouble on the 1993-1999 Northstars, but they are very simple to change if you want to do that. If you would get the OBD II codes and post them, we could make a better guess as to whether changing them is worth the trouble and expense.

[Ronniels]

No codes...but the PCM has been cleared since the last time the car was running. The Cam sensor is showing 1.55 at the 20k Ohms setting, So I guess the sensor is bad then?

I have looked thru manuals and looked online for days...even check AllDataPro and can not find what the resistance should be. I am just trying to avoid buying the wrong parts again and again while trying to track down the actual problem.

Thanks!

[BodybyFisher]

I looked for a long time yesterday and could not find anything on the resistance on the CAM sensor you asked about. I was surprised it was not in there. I am glad that Jim just confirmed that its not in the manual, its easy to miss something like that, I looked for two hours.

I have one more place to look, Ill see what I can find later

[Cadillac Jim]

I think that 1.55 KOhms is not a bad sensor.

Another way to test the sensors is to put your meter on AC volts and measure the output of the sensor while the engine is turned over with the starter. If you see the meter jumping around or reading something like 1 to 5 Volts then the sensor is putting out signal.

If the crank or cam sensors don't work the computer will throw a code. If you aren't starting and have no codes, look for a bad fuel pump. The first thing to do is to smell the exhaust after trying to start the engine. If you don't smell gas, it isn't getting fuel.

[Ronniels]

Don't you hate it when you get your hands on something that someone else worked on previously and they fail to tell you a thing or two that they did?

OK, I hear the fuel pump prime, I have pressure at the rail. I try to crank it and I pull the plugs and they have fuel on them.

At least I assumed it was fuel.

The previous owner just told me that after the car had sat for a long time it wouldn't start, so he sprayed a can of carb clraner into the intaake because someone told him that would help it start. I have been blowing air into each cylinder thru the spark plug hole and blowing out the large amount of carb cleaner from each cylinder. So apparantly the liquid on the plugs was not gasoline. I have the cylinders airing out for a couple of days then I am going to blow compressed air into them again to get them dry inside.

(just wanna smack some people some times)

Anyway, I have 12 volts at every injector and about 42lbs of pressure at the rail. And no fuel being sprayed.

Should I pull the injectors and individually clean them? My Deville has not had the recall performed yet on the rails.

What is the best way to pull the injectors without harming them? I assume I'll need to replace the o-rings when I re-install them.

Thanks again!!

[BodybyFisher]

Don't you hate it when you get your hands on something that someone else worked on previously and they fail to tell you a thing or two that they did?

OK, I hear the fuel pump prime, I have pressure at the rail. I try to crank it and I pull the plugs and they have fuel on them.

At least I assumed it was fuel.

The previous owner just told me that after the car had sat for a long time it wouldn't start, so he sprayed a can of carb clraner into the intaake because someone told him that would help it start. I have been blowing air into each cylinder thru the spark plug hole and blowing out the large amount of carb cleaner from each cylinder. So apparantly the liquid on the plugs was not gasoline. I have the cylinders airing out for a couple of days then I am going to blow compressed air into them again to get them dry inside.

(just wanna smack some people some times)

Anyway, I have 12 volts at every injector and about 42lbs of pressure at the rail. And no fuel being sprayed.

Should I pull the injectors and individually clean them? My Deville has not had the recall performed yet on the rails.

What is the best way to pull the injectors without harming them? I assume I'll need to replace the o-rings when I re-install them.

Thanks again!!

You are VERY lucky. This picture came from a GM tech, his buddy also a GM tech sprayed upper engine cleaner into the throttle body and it pooled. When he took the car out for a test drive the liquid was sucked into a cylinder and it hydrolocked

How are you determining thatyou have 12 volts at each injector, be careful back probing. I don't think having 12 volts at the injectors is an indication that all is OK, they need to be pulsed, and while you have power that is good but the PCM pulses them probably in time with the cam sensor.

Given the age of your fuel rail, you probably should not mess with it, you can not physically clean your injectors without ruining them. I don't think this is the fault of your injectors

What happened with pulling codes again? You have NO codes, while cranking?

[BodybyFisher]

I just looked at the schematic, the injectors are split into A and B. That is why we see INJ A and INJ B fuses. A covers injectors 2, 4, 6 & 8 and B is 1, 3, 5 & 7. When the Key is ON, the injectors are always HOT with 12 volts, that is what you confirmed. As I mentioned above, the PCM grounds the other side via the injector control circuits. BE CAREFUL back probing you can damage the PCM

Will continue with this.

[Ronniels]

Won't touch the injectors without further instructions.

Thanks alot for your input.

I am going back to blowing clean air and drying them out over the weekend. (just using a very small home compressoer...100#'s max.)

Once I get them dry, I'll install new plugs and see if anything changes.

[BodybyFisher]

Lets check the Ignition Control Module (ICM).

The ignition control module has three connectors, C3 (pnk) is hot all the time with 12 volts from Fuse DISTR.

C1 is the crank sensors (purple and yellow is CKP 'A' & blk/wht and blu/wht is CKP 'B'),

C2 is the CAM sensor (brn/wht and pnk/blk)

Disconnect C2, using a DVM measure the resistance between terminals A and B of IC module connector C2 (harness) side (here is what you were looking for) the resistance should be between 800 and 2100 ohms.

Individually measure the resistance to GROUND at both terminal A and B of module connector C2, the resistance should be AT or below 100 ohms

Let me know what you find, ill post more later.

[BodybyFisher]

continued from above,

ONLY if the resistance to GROUND at both terminal A and B of module connector C2 described above is GREATER than 100 ohms do the following:

This test, tests the CAM sensor output, I am not sure if your (or my) DVM is sophisticated enough to perform this, maybe you can teach me something here

Here we go

Disconnect ICM module connector C3 (this disables ignition and kills the engines ability to start it will just CRANK)

Set DVM to peak min/max, 4 volt scale, 1 ms sampling rate. (help all of your electronics experts!, can your typical DVM do this?)

Measure max DC voltage across terminals A and B of connector C2 (harness side) while cranking engine. IS max DC voltage greater than 0.2 volts?