Marika Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/scimede...0,1668448.story From the Los Angeles Times ENERGY 'Hot fuel' study fires up anger A survey shows that California drivers could be overpaying as much as $3.4 million a day as temperatures cause gasoline to expand. By Elizabeth Douglass Los Angeles Times Staff Writer May 23, 2008 Soaring gasoline prices are bad enough. But this summer, California's higher temperatures could add an additional 8-cent-a-gallon wallop because pumping warmer fuel gives motorists less energy per fill-up. "Consumers are paying through the nose for gas today, and they're really angry," said Public Citizen President Joan Claybrook, who at a Thursday news conference urged consumers to back proposed federal legislation that would require gas pumps to take account of fuel's tendency to expand in warm temperatures. Because of the so-called hot fuel phenomenon, she added, this summer "just about everyone will be overpaying for the gas that they purchase." Claybrook said the temperature hit could cost customers an extra $3 billion nationwide. In fuel-hungry California, where the statewide average gasoline price passed the $4-a-gallon mark Thursday, a new survey showed that motorists could be overpaying by as much as $3.4 million a day during the summer months. "It's a significant number, and one that we shouldn't be paying," said Judy Dugan, research director at Santa Monica-based Consumer Watchdog, formerly called the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights. "With every rise in the price of gas, hot fuel becomes a more important issue." For consumers and companies struggling with their fuel bills, the added insult of a hot-fuel penalty is unwelcome. "It irritates me because I don't think it has to be that way," said Jim Aasen, who owns Montrose-based Crestmont Appliance Service. Last year, the monthly gas bill from all his house calls jumped to $425, up $100. "When that happened . . . I raised my service call charge by $20," he said. Now that $4-a-gallon gas threatens to boost his costs further, Aasen said, "I might have to do it again." The science behind the hot-fuel controversy isn't in dispute. The U.S. government defines a gallon of gas this way: At 60 degrees, a gallon is 231 cubic inches. But when fuel is warmer than 60 degrees, the liquid expands, yielding less energy per gallon. When it's colder, the fuel contracts. Gasoline expands or contracts 1% for every 15-degree change in the fuel's temperature. Diesel volumes change 0.6% per 15-degree change. The phenomenon -- and the economic effects of it -- is so well known that U.S. oil companies and distributors track the temperature of the fuel they sell one another and adjust the total bill to conform with the 60-degree standard. Gas stations and truck stops don't have temperature-compensating devices, so the pumps dispense each gallon as if it is flowing at 60 degrees -- and the stations charge customers as if they are getting government-standard gallons. There is nothing illegal about the practice. It's been allowed for decades by measurement regulators who assumed that retail fuel temperatures stayed close to the government standard most of the time, and that any losses from hot fuel in the summertime would be offset by gains in the winter. California's new study, which sampled fuel temperatures around the state during a 12-month period, found that gasoline temperatures were almost always well above the 60-degree standard.The year-round average temperature was 71.1 degrees. Calculating how much money consumers lose in the process isn't easy, though, because the amount of the overpayment depends on the temperature of the fuel and the retail price of gas, and both are in constant flux. "It's the equivalent of the grocer taking your meat into the back room to weigh it and putting his thumb on the scale," said Dugan of Consumer Watchdog. "With gasoline, everybody has their thumb on the scale." Consumer groups and trucker organizations -- some truckers have sued oil companies over the issue -- have urged state and federal officials to force gas stations to install equipment that would rectify the problem. The possibility is being studied in California. Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) introduced legislation in August that would require all new and upgraded retail fuel pumps to be outfitted with automatic temperature-compensation equipment. In Canada, where cold weather would give consumers the advantage at the pump, most fuel retailers were quick to invest voluntarily in the devices. And Hawaii requires retail pumps to dispense fuel on the assumption that it is 80 degrees instead of the standard 60 degrees. A coalition of service-station retailers and truck-stop operators has been fighting back, arguing that the equipment is expensive and that there is no evidence that consumers are being cheated. "If everybody has to put on temperature correction equipment . . . that expense is going to be passed on to the customer in the price of gas," said Jay McKeeman, a vice president at the California Independent Oil Marketers Assn., a trade group for gas station owners and others. "What we don't know is whether that cost to the customer will be offset by the benefit. In our estimation and evaluation, it won't." The state has approved one temperature-adjusting device for sale in California, and measurement rules allow any station to install the equipment voluntarily. McKeeman's group wants to prevent that too. In February, his group wrote state measurement officials urging them to "immediately adopt emergency regulations" to prohibit any retailer from installing the temperature-adjusting devices. elizabeth.douglass@latimes.com Copyright 2008 Los Angeles Times If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 This only has a very very small effect on a tank of gas, but it is best to fuel when the temperature is cool out due to this, say early in the morning or in the evening. If that is more convenient then I try to do so; however the difference is not large enough to matter otherwise. Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 If the service station is busy, all the gas will be at the temperature of the underground tank, which varies little over a 24 hour period. If the station isn't busy and the gas pump handle doesn't go cold when the gas starts to pump, stop at 5 gallons and go elsewhere. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catmendo Posted May 24, 2008 Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 are y'all thinking too hard here, or am i not, thinking hard enough here ??? i have a well and if i remember right, my water comes out the ground at 56 degrees (i read it) and, if remember right, you only have to go down a couple of feet to achieve this temp. why do you think dogs and other animals, like to dig down in the summer ??? it would seem to me, that a gas tank, that's buried 10 to 20 feet down in the ground temps. would not vary at all ... i minded a friends pool, while he was on vacation to keep his water level up ... his city water was practically ambient temperature(90 degrees or so) while my water would raise goose bumps on your flesh ... his water is coming out of a water tower, a half mile away while mine is coming out of the ground from about 120 feet ... the question here is, who is thinking too hard or who is not thinking hard enough ??? Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catmendo Posted May 24, 2008 Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 alright, i have now thought about this for a few more minutes ... and if you are worried, about this phenomenon, then going by my water tower theory, i would not buy gas on the same day as the gas was delivered to my prefered gas station ... i would ask them, on what day, that their gas is delivered and buy a day or two later ... because the gasoline would be warmer depending on how far they hauled it, due to ambient temperature and after a day or so it would be at below gound temps. ... jeez, are y'all trying too make me think too hard ??? please, feel free to spank me on this guys ... this is how i learn ... Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted May 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 alright, i have now thought about this for a few more minutes ... and if you are worried, about this phenomenon, then going by my water tower theory, i would not buy gas on the same day as the gas was delivered to my prefered gas station ... i would ask them, on what day, that their gas is delivered and buy a day or two later ... because the gasoline would be warmer depending on how far they hauled it, due to ambient temperature and after a day or so it would be at below gound temps. ... jeez, are y'all trying too make me think too hard ??? please, feel free to spank me on this guys ... this is how i learn ... Lane You shouldn't pump gas into your vehicle on the day it's delivered because you'll end up with a lot of junk in your gas tank. The delivery tends to stir up "particulate matter" from the bottom of the station tanks. If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted May 24, 2008 Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 Lane, I pretty much agree with you. When I was a kid, I used to spend part of the summer with my Grandparents. They lived on a farm and had an underground celler. Grandmother stored food that she canned, in glass jars there. It was always cooler there in summer than the ambient temp, and in the winter it NEVER froze any of her stuff, even if the outside temps were in the teens or twenties. They also had a well. The water was always cool. Actually, they had two wells... an old one where you used a bucket with a rope and pulley, and a more modern DEEP well, with a pump and storage tank. I remember Grandfather putting watermelons in the old well to get cold. Sometimes on Sunday morning before going to Church. He would take a five gallon bucket, put the watermelon in it... lower it into the well while we were at Church. Get back home, eat Grandma's fried chicken, home grown vegatables, bisquits and gravy. THEN... Grandfather goes to the well and gets the watermelon.... It is COLD from being in the wel water and tastes SO good. Wish I could go back and do that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catmendo Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 "Wish I could go back and do that again" it kind of sounded to me, that you just did that ... aren't, good memories, just grand ... Jim, i am glad to hear, that you have country blood in you too ... all the families, that i come from, have been in the Carolina's, for an average of at least 350 years ... Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 "Wish I could go back and do that again" it kind of sounded to me, that you just did that ... aren't, good memories, just grand ... Jim, i am glad to hear, that you have country blood in you too ... all the families, that i come from, have been in the Carolina's, for an average of at least 350 years ... Lane Some of the best memories I have of childhood are from the summers I spent on Grandfathers farm. Grew up dirt poor in the piney woods of East texas. School was no fun at all. In elementary school, I skipped two grades. That put me two years YOUNGER. than anyone else. And if you remember how kids are... guess who was always picked on. School was not a happy time for me at all... dropped out of school in the eighth grade. I was a straight "A" student... but was sick of the constant hassle. Worked various jobs till I was 17. Joined the Air Force. Even without any education, I scored so high on the admittance tests... they waived the high school diploma requirement. I was a flying crew chief on the HU16 Albatross. That is a seaplane. It is actually a TRIPHIBIAN. If I remember correctly.. it was the only one the Air Force ever had. All other sea planes are AMphibian... not TRIphibian. The HU16 could also land and take off on ICE and SNOW. It hac a built in, hydraulically activated SKI, in the lower fuselage, and could have one attached to each outboard wing pontoon. It landed on it belly with the landing gear UP. Before my 21st birthday, I was married, had 2 kids, had done two tours in 'Nam and still couldn't go into a bar and buy a beer if I wanted one. My Darling Wife, has done some genelogy work. Her people came from S. Carolina. Went to Tennessee, then to Texas, back to Tennessee, then back to Texas. Mine went from S. Carolina, to Alabama, THEN to Texas. I wonder if BOTH of our families, maybe had some GYPSY blood in them. I have had all types of jobs down thru the years. Laborer on construction jobs, bulldozer operator, truck driver... sewer plant operator.. real estate investor... aircraft mechanic... etc etc etc. I taught myself computers and networks. I have no formal schooling in either. I now work for the third largest bank in the US (Wells Fargo) doing IT work. Been with them for nine years now. But I am for sure, COUNTRY. I think it was Popeye in the old cartoons, that said... I am what I am, and thats all that I am. I am just ME.. take it or leave it Don't know why I wrote all that... it makes no difference anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 "Wish I could go back and do that again" it kind of sounded to me, that you just did that ... aren't, good memories, just grand ... Jim, i am glad to hear, that you have country blood in you too ... all the families, that i come from, have been in the Carolina's, for an average of at least 350 years ... Lane Some of the best memories I have of childhood are from the summers I spent on Grandfathers farm. Grew up dirt poor in the piney woods of East texas. School was no fun at all. In elementary school, I skipped two grades. That put me two years YOUNGER. than anyone else. And if you remember how kids are... guess who was always picked on. School was not a happy time for me at all... dropped out of school in the eighth grade. I was a straight "A" student... but was sick of the constant hassle. Worked various jobs till I was 17. Joined the Air Force. Even without any education, I scored so high on the admittance tests... they waived the high school diploma requirement. I was a flying crew chief on the HU16 Albatross. That is a seaplane. It is actually a TRIPHIBIAN. If I remember correctly.. it was the only one the Air Force ever had. All other sea planes are AMphibian... not TRIphibian. The HU16 could also land and take off on ICE and SNOW. It hac a built in, hydraulically activated SKI, in the lower fuselage, and could have one attached to each outboard wing pontoon. It landed on it belly with the landing gear UP. Before my 21st birthday, I was married, had 2 kids, had done two tours in 'Nam and still couldn't go into a bar and buy a beer if I wanted one. My Darling Wife, has done some genelogy work. Her people came from S. Carolina. Went to Tennessee, then to Texas, back to Tennessee, then back to Texas. Mine went from S. Carolina, to Alabama, THEN to Texas. I wonder if BOTH of our families, maybe had some GYPSY blood in them. I have had all types of jobs down thru the years. Laborer on construction jobs, bulldozer operator, truck driver... sewer plant operator.. real estate investor... aircraft mechanic... etc etc etc. I taught myself computers and networks. I have no formal schooling in either. I now work for the third largest bank in the US (Wells Fargo) doing IT work. Been with them for nine years now. But I am for sure, COUNTRY. I think it was Popeye in the old cartoons, that said... I am what I am, and thats all that I am. I am just ME.. take it or leave it Don't know why I wrote all that... it makes no difference anyway. Very interesting background Jim, thanks for sharing that with us... Britt, I think you know is also an aircraft mechanic. When we traveled around the mid-west in 1964, going from air force base to air force base, my mom fondly remembers that trip as, "we traveled around the mid-west like Gypsy's..." (and we did). I would be interested in your real estate experience. I have always found Texas commercial real estate overwhelming and different and Texas real estate people to be very engaging and friendly people. I have valued a lot of office buildings and shopping centers/malls in Texas.. I love the people there. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catmendo Posted May 26, 2008 Report Share Posted May 26, 2008 Jim, my mother and I have done, tons of research on S.C. families... both on the computer, and at the archives ... if you would like too, email me your and you wife's last names, that relate to S.C. ... and maybe i can tell you a little something, something on them ... the first names on them would be most helpful too ... the odder their first names the better ... I.E. my grand-dad's first name was rinkilas and his dad's was simeon ... both my mothers and fathers families last names, go back as far as you can go (USA wise) my mothers more so, than my fathers, although my fathers family may well be of the hapsburg or habsburg family of the greater germany/austria area... spell it like you want and do a google, on either name... that legend has been been past down for centuries in my family that we are of that family and we are working on proving it ... we need to get off our butts and do a genetics test, but it looks most likely, all the same ... Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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