Logan Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Wiggly Deville. The GM service bulletin is gone. (I have up to date service access..being a GM employee). I did buy some 2004 Bonneville GXP arms on eBay for $50. Great deal, I suspect the bushing material is different with the Bonneville arms. Bonneville is a FE5 setup. (stiff). I may have to rebush them...but now I have something to work with.. they may simply be DTS arms.. That being said, I would love to see a picture of the Deville 'service bulletin' arms.. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 I'm a little uncertain what you'd like. Do you mean these? . . . Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 Well, sort of.. found the TSB. Important: THE CONTROL ARMS SHOULD ONLY BE INSTALLED ON VEHICLES IF, AFTER THE TIRE AND WHEEL DIAGNOSIS AND REPAIRS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED, THE VIBRATION CONDITION STILL EXISTS. Replace both lower control arms on vehicles built prior to the following VIN breakpoints. On Aurora, Bonneville, DeVille, Park Avenue, Park Avenue Ultra and Seville models, a newly developed hydro-bushing lower control arm with improved damping characteristics has been released. This control arm is not used on the LeSabre. The new lower control arms may provide an incremental improvement to the vehicle ride. Customers who have become "tuned in" to the shake condition may still feel some shake in the vehicle after the new lower control arms are installed. Refer to Lower Control Arm Replacement in SI (refer to the Parts Information table below for SI document ID numbers). Model VIN Park Avenue 34175493 Seville (SLS, STS) 3U247643 DeVille (DTS only) 3U247644 Aurora 34175503 Bonneville 34175497 Parts Information P/N Description SI Document 25746324 Lower Control Arm, Left (Aurora, Bonneville, DeVille, Park Avenue, Park Avenue Ultra, Seville) Aurora -- 639351 Bonneville -- 657809 DeVille w/FE1, FE3 -- 724856 DeVille w/FE7 -- 724858 Park Avenue, Park Avenue Ultra -- 657760 Seville -- 539332 25746325 Lower Control Arm, Right (Aurora, Bonneville, DeVille, Park Avenue, Park Avenue Ultra, Seville) Parts are currently available from GMSPO. Posts on the internet suggest the updated arms are heavier in design etc. #1 suspect is the large forward 'hydro' bushing. It has also been reported these replacement arms missed the target on being a fix. Hence me, finding the Bonneville GXP arms on eBay. These are set up as FE5. I would suspect the bushings are different then a base Deville. Hopefully, the GXP arms have a noticeable difference in bushing material. If not, it will be much easier finding new style bushings with a set of arms in hand vs on the car. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 Good luck with the control arms. I was lucky with the 01 dts I never had the front end shake When I was looking for the 01 I drove several devilles & dts that had the front end shake One of them was so bad that driving on the freeway the hood was vibrating big time along with the rest of the car.Maybe the pontiac arms will do the trick Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 I think alot of the Deville problem is senstivity to having really good tires. Mine is pretty decent with the snugged up cradle and good tires. Much better then when I bought the car. I simply have the time to experiment farther with the possible control arm issue. I mean...even GM has a TSB about the arms. Somethings up... If the GXP arms have the same bushings...I will replace with stiffer ones. Fairly easy to do with the arms on the parts counter. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 I'm in need of a reminder . . . . what MY is the "Fake DTS?" Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 2001 base Deville. Modified to look just like a 2001 DTS. Wheels, hood, front bumper, painted rockers, painted rear panel, floor shifter, steering column, steering wheel, cluster, grille, emblems.. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 I have no experience with shaky Devilles But I know of two people with shaky Sevilles where the dealer replaced the lower control arms (as per the TSB) and it made no difference on the amount of shake their car produced... It is pretty much given that RFB numbers of less then 10pounds per corner is the only way to eliminate the dreaded vibration. What are the RFB numbers for your car? Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growe3 Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 I am a late arrival to this thread, but it caught my attention. I have a 2004 DTS which is in very nice condition, I bought it with 27.3k miles on it. I felt some front end vibration, and assumed that it was the tires. As part of my getting to know my "new" car, I took off the wheels, and after a thorough cleaning had them all balanced. The balancing helped, but there is still some vibration from about 40-70 MPH. After 70 it smooths out pretty good. I know, keep it above 70 MPH, but can't always do that. I now wonder if I may have other issues in the front end. The car is otherwise in excellent condition. Does anyone know where TSB's for the 2004 DTS might be posted? As the car is covered by the Cadillac warranty, I would like to get everything necessary fixed before the warranty expires. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, George Drive'em like you own 'em. - ....................04 DTS............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 TSBs for 2004 Deville: Regards, Warren P.S. Let me know if you need specific info on any of these. 04Deville.txt There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growe3 Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 TSBs for 2004 Deville: Regards, Warren P.S. Let me know if you need specific info on any of these. Thanks Warren, would you have any further information on the two TSB's listed below? #03-00-91-001B Info - Vibration Analysis Worksheet - (Aug 9, 2004) #00-03-10-007G Shake/Vibration in Steering Wheel, Floor, Seat at Highway Speeds on Smooth Roads (Diagnose/Balance Tires/Wheels) - (Oct 1, 2004) Drive'em like you own 'em. - ....................04 DTS............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Shake & Vibration Shake_Vibration.doc There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Vibration Analysis Worksheet Vibration_Worksheet.doc There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growe3 Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Vibration Analysis Worksheet Thanks Warren, these .doc's were just what I need, to try and track down the vibration. -George Drive'em like you own 'em. - ....................04 DTS............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 George, Glad to have been of some small help. If you "nail it," please don't forget to report back on your findings. Regards, Warren EDIT: Some handsome looking Detroit iron there. There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 I agree, the better the RFB, the better the ride. Problem is, it is nearly impossible to find 4 new tires that will come in at 10 lbs. Mine came in at about 15 lbs. That is with 1 tire being sent back to TireRack @ 25 lbs. Very heavy GM front wheel drive car. Maybe thats it. Mine has snugged up cradle. Helps a bunch. But there is still something there. Anyway, GXP arms are here. They appear to be standard Deville arms. Suspect front bushing is very easily deformed while prying. Way to much...see picture. Imagine 3500 lbs at 65 mph..rear bushing seems ok.. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Suspect front bushing is very easily deformed while prying. Way to much...see picture. Imagine 3500 lbs at 65 mph..rear bushing seems ok.. Most of the weight is suspended by the strut, though weight does increase bushing loading under some conditions. I suspect the rear one needs to be stiffer for steering precision; the front one is designed to reduce impact harshness by allowing a slight, momentary, rearward movement of the wheel to better conform to road variation. Is there sufficient clearance to adapt the 2006+ 58 mm bushing or does the subframe need to be modified? ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Hmmm...these front bushings are a mile from the real action. Hence they gotta be moving around funny. The 2006 arms are completely different. The more I look at the front bushing. The more I am confused.... The way the bushing is set up...lots of possible movement horizonal wise (see pic above)...but the bushing has more material vertical wise. So the bushing is easily deformed side to side....but not up and down. Strange.. I would think the amount of side to side deflection...would have the arm moving in a less then desirable fashion. As far away as this bushing is from the real action...the farther away the more the effect...it seems it would be easy to have strange vibrations occur. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Hmmm...these front bushings are a mile from the real action. Hence they gotta be moving around funny. The 2006 arms are completely different. The front bushings aren't that 'distant' if one regards the rear bushing as a pivot point (horizontal plane) - Movement at the ball joint and front bushing location would be roughly 1:1 assuming a rigid control arm. Regardless of the durometer specification of the front bushing, there'll always be a point of resonance somewhere along the line. Looks like too much trouble to retrofit the 2006+ parts. ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Ok....here is a YouTube video of the play in the forward bushing. These arms only have 50K on them. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted tcb Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Very heavy GM front wheel drive car. Maybe thats it. What I don't understand is why this problem simply does not exist on the 92-97 STS's. These cars are just as heavy, and share the same drivetrain. Both of mine were smooth as can be, but my 99 and 01 have both had a bit of an issue with vibration. Maybe the newer "G" body, with its stiffer structure, holds the clue? 1989 FWD Fleetwood, Silver 1995 STS Crimson Pearl on Black leather 1997 STS Diamond White 1999 STS Crimson Pearl 2001 STS Silver 2003 STS, Crimson Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Very heavy GM front wheel drive car. Maybe thats it. What I don't understand is why this problem simply does not exist on the 92-97 STS's. These cars are just as heavy, and share the same drivetrain. Both of mine were smooth as can be, but my 99 and 01 have both had a bit of an issue with vibration. Maybe the newer "G" body, with its stiffer structure, holds the clue? The 92-97 suspension was set up differently. Control arm area. I just posted this video of the play in the forward bushing. I am not forcing it. Lots of wiggle in the X axis.. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Ok....here is a YouTube video of the play in the forward bushing. These arms only have 50K on them. I think it would be more meaningful to assess the movement while keeping the inner section parallel to the rotational axis of the control arm. In operation, there's no way that bushing could deflect in the presented manner since the rear bushing position is 'fixed'. ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Hi Logan The bushings appear to have a little slop in them. Good Luck Maybe it will cure the wiggles. I'll be work'n on mine this week this weekend. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 The video was to show the play. I agree it would not do that in the car. But... You can use a screwdriver and pry on the forward bushing in the car....and the arm will easily move side to side. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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