DTS Oil Burner

[CBOYLE15]

I started a new thread because this does not fall under GM bankruptcy.

When I picked up the 1999 SLS today. I asked the service manager about the 2001 DTS which uses oil about every 1000 miles.

He said that is close to normal but said their is a Carbon cleaning procedure that may help. Since the car is out of the Bumper to Bumper warranty and it is not covered bt the GM major guard I would have to pay for it $400.00. says it takes 8 hours.

I do not want to cause any more problems and do not really care about a $1.50 quart of oil. The car has 33,000 miles on it and I run it hard lots of WOT.

Any recommendations about GEM number two

[BodybyFisher]

Go on a not so travelled highway.

Put the tranny in 2nd gear,

Start at 40 MPH and give it full throttle to 70,

take your foot off the gas and let it drop back to 40,

Repeat 10 times.

This technique exercises the rings, frees any carbon and blows it out on deceleration.

Do this once a week and see if it begins to affect oil consumption. Do not top off the oil. Mine used to be bad, and the need oil light would come on, now it never comes on...

What kind and weight of oil are you using. Use 10W30 in summer and 5W30 in winter. If you are using synthetic stop.

[Bob D]

Well, it’s not only the WOT treatment that is the N*’s best friend but the ‘style’ or technique of WOT that may remedy higher oil consumption. The WOT runs should consist of bursts from 40-70 mph while in second gear, That’s right, get those revs up, then let the engine compression brake the motor by getting off the gas completely while still in second. On the way back down the rings will ‘flutter’ causing them to free up . These blasts from 40-70 and back down to 40 should be repeated at least half a dozen times per session. Cruise then hit it again. Do this once a week.

^^^ Ha! Great minds think alike..

[CBOYLE15]

Will do!

Have to do when wife not in car.

5w30 winter

10w30 summer

stopped Mobil 1 about 2 years ago.

change oil and filter every 3 months regardless of mileage.

When new changed oil and filter at 500 miles oil and filter at 1000 miles

I am scared they might damage motor with the cleaning procedure suggested for $400.00 ????

I think they pump it up with cleaning solvent let it set and start it up and blow it out than change the oil.

might break a ring with that procedure ?????

Thanks for the suggestion

[Bob D]

>I am scared they might damage motor with the cleaning procedure suggested for $400.00 ????<

I think they pump it up with cleaning solvent let it set and start it up and blow it out than change the oil.

might break a ring with that procedure ?????

Thanks for the suggestion

What's that...250 quarts of oil? Shoooo...

I'd keep those guys away from a great running motor that used a quart per 1k.

No big deal.

[Ranger]

You might find this interseting, not to mention have a different take on oil consumption after reading it.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-tech.html#noil

[CBOYLE15]

Amen!!!

was just interested in this "procedure" he was talking about.

[JasonA]

My mom had the carbon cleaning procedure done when she owned my '97. It cost her $102, including like $15 in "parts". It's not an 8-hour job, nor does it cost $400. I think your dealership is trying to get over on ya!

Also remember that oil "consumption" isn't the same problem it used to be. Small block Chevies of yore would wear in so much, there would be so much play in the piston rings/valve guides, that it would burn oil. While it was wearing like this, the cylinder walls proceeded to become GLASS SMOOTH. Not good for the rings. In short, it was a self-enabling cycle.

Today's engines (not just the Northstar) use oil for a different reason. The cylinder walls have a very agressive cross-hatch. This helps retain oil to lubricate the cylinder walls for hundreds of thousands of miles. In addition, there are FOUR valves in the head, and all valve guides use oil to keep the valve stem lubricated. Four valves instead of two equals double the oil. When I started seeing high-revving Hondas in the mid '90s burn smoke while at full throttle, I just thought they were pieces of crap. Now I know the engineering reasoning behind it.

In other words, you WANT the engine to use some oil. It means that the engine is WELL lubricated and will practically last forever. Also recall that the Northstar uses a large oil sump, so there's no need to constantly check-and-fill like you would an engine with a smaller sump (like a Honda or something). The Northstar runs completely fine on 2-3 qts. "low". The low oil indicator won't light until the car is sitting at 5 quarts, out of 7.5 when "full".

Here's a classic example of people thinking about how their cars ran in 1975, and applying that to a modern engine:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/t223159-burning_oil.html

"I worked for Cadillac dealers for 27 years. I found most Northstars went 900 to 1000 miles per quart. The oil is going thru between the valve guides and the heads. There has been a problem with this since 1994. Instead of fixing it, GM issues a bulletin that states that 1 quart of oil in 700 miles is normal and no repairs should be attempted. I'm glad I retired. I was running out of excusses for GM's poor engineering. It started with the diesel, then 8-6-4, then HT4100. I'm supprised I don't drink more."

This guy just throws the term "problem" on all the issues he brings up. Oil consumption on a modern high performance engine is NOT confined to Cadillac. Then he calls the diesel, the 8-6-4 engine, and the HT4100 "poor engineering". Who was the first domestic to market with ANY passenger car diesel? Who was the first in the WORLD market with cylinder deactivation, something we're beginning to see AGAIN today? Who was the first domestic (and maybe ANYONE) with a modern aluminum V8 engine (HT4100) that returned excellent mileage in such a big car? He's not acknowledging that back in the '80s, what we had to work with on a lot of fronts is not as advanced as today. Computers, processors, metallurgy, etc. GM has been and still is an innovator. When you innovate, you make mistakes.

Check CaddyDaddy's posts on that thread. They're exactly inline with what the guys are saying here.

[JasonA]

Never mind! Ranger posted that great FAQ. Thanks Larry.

[BodybyFisher]

One more thing, do some reseach on the OLM! And use it, 3,000 mile oil changes are, well how do I say, old CW (conventional wisdom), new CW is to utilize the OLM (oil life monitor). If you remember old owners manuals said change the oil 'depending upon driving habits", between 3,000 and like 7,500 miles. Oil's enemy is short trips, long trips heats the oil and evaporates the impurities and moisture out prolonging the oil. Plus the oils today are MUCH better. If you are doing long trips all the time you might get 10,000 miles. Jason tells an interesting story, were he was doing short trips and the OLM said change oil at 3,000 miles...

The OLM monitors drive time, speed, trip length, temperature utilized an algorithm WAY better than you can. The ONLY thing it can not monitor is dusty conditions, so if you drive on dirt roads use with 3,000 mile intervals but if you don't drive in dusty conditions use the OLM. I get about 6,000 per oil change interval...

Do a search on OLM

[JasonA]

CBOYLE, have a look at this:

http://www.jnjhome.net/cadillac/maint.htm

It's the maintenance file for my car. Notice work done (at a dealer) on 12/19/00. $430 parts/labor includes the carbon cleaning, turning brake rotors, and an O2 sensor (not cheap). $430 total, for everything.

All the repair parts combined on mine in the last 100,000 miles don't total the one-time cost your dealer gave you. My point isn't to brag, but to point out that your dealer is a real thief. I'd disregard anything he's ever told you and tell your friends not to go there.

There are two dealers like that in Fayetteville (fortunately not a Cadillac dealer). In fact, the US Army has advised through SJA that soldiers NOT visit these establishments. Crown Dodge and Rick Hendrick Toyota. Complete crooks. I've had horrible service from Rick Hendrick Chrysler as well, so it's not isolated to one soul. We have to watch out for each other out there...there are a lot of people who want to eat our lunch out from under us!

[JIMDTS]

I had the same oil consumption issue on my 01 dts Don't waste your money on the deep carbon cleaning not woth it. On mine the fix was updated(new) rings and pistons I was using 1qt every 650 miles before the overhaul now Not sure on consumption now I have been changing the oil at very short intervals since the engine was torn apart 2 times at 500miles 2 times at 1,000 miles now Longest I have went was 2k miles and then changed the oil and didn't set off any add oil messages so it okay but now time will tell on how it does.Now I have 2k on this oil change and I'll change it in another 1000 miles at 3k I don't go by the oil monitor You can WOT your engine all day long and it is not going to change the oil usage issue it's the rings allowing the oil to blow by ..

Good Luck

The car does not get driven much I have been using my wifes 05 deville and she drives the 01 lately.

Jim

[JasonA]

Jim, in your case, it sounds like the rings were mechanically bad, or mismatched to the engine, or SOMETHING. In this case, you're right, doing the "self cleaning" won't accomplish much.

In the vast majority of the situations, the problem is gummed up piston rings, from intense carbon buildup. In these situations, the rings themsevles are fine, but they're inhibited from a proper seal from carbon buildup. In these situations, driving it hard as described above will help.

My brother's roommate just bought an '03 I think it is Mercury Marauder. I was trying hard to "sell" him Cadillac. But his family is a Ford family, so he was pre-biased. Anyway, I mentioned the oil consumption on the Northstar, and the need to run it hard. He said the guys on the Maraurder forums say the same thing about their 302-hp DOHC V8...you gotta USE it or it may start to consume a large® amount of oil. His first time to the track with it netted him a 14.7 quarter mile. He's USING it!

[CBOYLE15]

We have 3 Cadillac dealers in our area

Colonial cadillac Trenton NJ

Fawlkner Cadillac Trevose Pa

Charles Cadillac Bristol Pa.

Each one has done something to the SLS

Settled on Charles because they are most cooperative. Most of all I know they will help my wife if I am not home. This means a lot to us

The mechanic who works on my car I have know for over 35 years and has worked at Charles for that length of time.

He use to be my Motor Pool Sergent when we were in the National Guard many years ago.

[Ranger]

The mechanic who works on my car I have know for over 35 years and has worked at Charles for that length of time.

He use to be my Motor Pool Sergent when we were in the National Guard many years ago.

Obviously, you never told him you pissed in his gas tank.

[epricedright]

Are the WOT's recommended for the 4.9 as well? I have done them and haven't been able to conclude if there were any gains made. Was the 4.9 designed to be ran hard like the N*?

[Ranger]

No to both questions.

[BodybyFisher]

Are the WOT's recommended for the 4.9 as well?  I have done them and haven't been able to conclude if there were any gains made.  Was the 4.9 designed to be ran hard like the N*?

I did a couple of low speed WOTS with my 4.9 and thought that I messed it up, I had a valve tick for about a week, I must have collapsed a lifter. I don't know why, but it seemed to rev a lot higher than I would have liked a couple of times when I WOT'd at less than 30.... I definately wound not do it at low speeds, getting on the expressway I think its always good to clean her out I would just keep the RPMS in a safe range.

[BodybyFisher]

Well, it’s not only the WOT treatment that is the N*’s best friend but the ‘style’ or technique of WOT that may remedy higher oil consumption. The WOT runs should consist of bursts from 40-70 mph while in second gear, That’s right, get those revs up, then let the engine compression brake the motor by getting off the gas completely while still in second. On the way back down the rings will ‘flutter’ causing them to free up . These blasts from 40-70 and back down to 40 should be repeated at least half a dozen times per session. Cruise then hit it again. Do this once a week.

^^^ Ha! Great minds think alike..

We had a good teacher

[CBOYLE15]

so did he

[tjtjwdad]

The 40-70 WOT in 2nd gear may be great for the engine but I have reservations about the motor mounts. I get a hell of a lot of torque steer and some front end lift when I just floor it at 40-45 MPH. So I'm a little easier into the throttle until say 55 or so and then I push it to the floor. I do allow the engine to brake the car.

Jim

[BodybyFisher]

The 40-70 WOT in 2nd gear may be great for the engine but I have reservations about the motor mounts.  I get a hell of a lot of torque steer and some front end lift when I just floor it at 40-45 MPH.  So I'm a little easier into the throttle until say 55 or so and then I push it to the floor.  I do allow the engine to brake the car.

Jim

I agree with you Jim, I am about 3/4 till 55 then full... I am a wimp also...

[tjtjwdad]

Hey Jason,

Did you catch this one on the link you posted "http://www.automotiveforums.com/t223159-burning_oil.html"

Charles Smith

I've had two Caddys with that problem. The first one, an '85 Seville was taking a quart with every tank of gas at 50,000 miles. I switched to 20w50 oil and it stopped for the next 115,000 miles. At 165,000, it was getting a little blowby. I stopped in at a ten-minute oil change one day. They were training a new guy, and he forgot to put oil back in it after draining the sump and changing the filter. It ran for about 10-15 minutes with no oil in it!! Mostly at idle, as it would not revv up. I drove it around the block after it had sat getting cleaned while idling with the A/C running. After putting oil back into it, it ran normally, and the blowby was gone!! My '96 Consourse began to burn excessively at around 150,000 miles and I switched to 20w50, and the excessive oil consumption stopped. The owners manual warns specifically against using 20W50 oil. They want your car in the junk yard before it gets old and cheap.

I have seen an unpublished Cadillac SR that describes some kind of acid soak that disolves excess carbon residue on the ring grooves.

He ran his car for 10-15 minutes without oil to clear a "blow by issue". I don't buy that ( I don't care how much snake oil has been through it ... aka Slick-50). Oh ... he'll clear up the blow by all right because the motor will seize up. I remember my 79 Olds Cutlass with a diesel lost oil pressure and I'm here to tell ya’, there is no way under the sun that car would run for 1 minute, much less 10-15 minutes.

Jim