bullneck39 Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 does anyone know approx. what it cost to have timeserts installed for the heads on a 98 cad deville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Approximately $3,000 to $4,000, see this thread there is a lot of good information regarding time-serting http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4942&st=0 Another good link for background http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1032&hl= Another http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1665&st=0 Another http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3540&hl= Another http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4796&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poobah Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Scotty's estimate sounds reasonable for an entire head gasket replacement job including timeserts. Actually, it could easily run more than that depending on what your mechanic's hourly rate is and what additional work might be necessary or prudent while the engine is apart. There is no point in taking a good Northstar apart just to install timeserts. Any time the heads are taken off, however, it is a good idea to timesert all the head bolt holes. The "official" procedure generally used for work done under warrantee is to timesert only those holes where the threads have been stripped or are questionable. The problem with this is that there is a very real chance of stripping non-timeserted threads on reassembly. Should this happen on the final torquing, the head would have to be taken back off, the stripped hole timeserted, and the head reattached using new bolts and a new gasket. This is time consuming and costly. The additional cost of timeserting all the head bolt holes is good insurance plus the completed job is stronger and more durable than it was originally. Book time to timesert a head bolt hole is 1/2 hour. There are a total of 20 head bolts on a Northstar (10 on each side). If your shop charges $75 per hour, the labor would be $750 to do all 20 holes. Your mechanic will need a timesert installation kit to do the job. The kit contains all the necessary jigs, drills, taps, instructions and supplies to do the work. (The job cannot be done properly without the installation kit.) The kit also contains some timeserts (I don't remember how many), but additional timeserts will have to be purchased if you are doing all 20 holes. The cost of the kit plus enough timeserts to do the entire job is about $435. If your mechanic has a kit or is willing to purchase one himself and keep it for further use, the cost of the actual timesert inserts would be considerably less, probably under $100. If you have to take a Northstar apart, you will face a number of decisions, risks, trade-offs and compromises. The costs add up very quickly. The choices you make depend a great deal on your attitude toward the car, how long you plan to keep it, and how much money you are willing to invest in it. I hope the above information is useful as you consider your options. Happiness is owning a Cadillac with no codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Recently I was in my local Caddy dealer and the head-gasket tech, made a statement that I have been reluctant to mention. The reason I have not mentioned it, is because our Guru is not around to give his opinion. The tech told me that time-serting is a waste of time and that the timeserts will eventually pull. He has timeserted engines only to have the timesert pull when he torqued the head bolt. I have never liked this tech's arrogant attitude and have taken what he says with a grain of salt, but this has been in be back of my head for about 6 months. I think this tech is a cancer. But what do you think of his statements? Why has he timeserted engines and had the timesert pull? Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 While an engine is out being timeserted, another decision that might come up is repairing a CASE-HALF leak if it exists.. Does anyone know if the main bearings are replaced during a case-half seal job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Recently I was in my local Caddy dealer and the head-gasket tech, made a statement that I have been reluctant to mention. The reason I have not mentioned it, is because our Guru is not around to give his opinion. The tech told me that time-serting is a waste of time and that the timeserts will eventually pull. He has timeserted engines only to have the timesert pull when he torqued the head bolt. I have never liked this tech's arrogant attitude and have taken what he says with a grain of salt, but this has been in be back of my head for about 6 months. I think this tech is a cancer. But what do you think of his statements? Why has he timeserted engines and had the timesert pull? Any thoughts? I've never heard of Timeserts pulling. Maybe he is not installing them properly? When the time serts are installed properly and tested to destruction, the bolt will fail before the timesert pulls. The Timeserts were designed and developed specifically for the Northstar head bolt holes and are the only repair that will last. Sounds like that tech has a huge chip on his shoulder... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growe3 Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Recently I was in my local Caddy dealer and the head-gasket tech, made a statement that I have been reluctant to mention. The reason I have not mentioned it, is because our Guru is not around to give his opinion. The tech told me that time-serting is a waste of time and that the timeserts will eventually pull. He has timeserted engines only to have the timesert pull when he torqued the head bolt. I have never liked this tech's arrogant attitude and have taken what he says with a grain of salt, but this has been in be back of my head for about 6 months. I think this tech is a cancer. But what do you think of his statements? Why has he timeserted engines and had the timesert pull? Any thoughts? I TimeSerted my 93' STS at about 123k, I now have 178k and no head bolt/gasket problems to date. The car is my daily driver and is not babied. I asked a dealer in Sacramento, CA, prior to doing the work myself. Their off the cuff quote was $2,500 - $3,000. I have also done the TimeSert repair on another 93' STS that I have, and after approximately 30k no problems. I think the tech that you spoke to just does not want to do the procedure, for whatever reason. I think that over $3,500 for the repair is too much. In that neighborhood I would opt to just replace the engine. New ones have been bought for $3,000 - $4,000. The cost of course would depend on the year of your car, and labor cost in your area. I spent approximately $890 on parts and the labor was me. The parts included a new TimeSert kit + ten additional inserts, and a number of items that I had not planned on, such as a new motor mount. See attached file for details. Bottom line is that a repair, properly done, will last. -George TimeSert_Repair.pdf Drive'em like you own 'em. - ....................04 DTS............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Thanks Kevin and George-- I have actually complained about his tech in the past to management as he bad mouths the NS. He is bad for GM and Cadillac with his negative attitude. I would love to have his job, and here he is disrespecting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevyorange Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Well to throw my costs in for comparison, I got a complete rebuild including time serts for $5500 including labor. 7 year, 100,000 mile warranty. Time will tell whether I made the right decision... but right now I'm glad to be getting my car back soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brmurph Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Recently I was in my local Caddy dealer and the head-gasket tech, made a statement that I have been reluctant to mention. The reason I have not mentioned it, is because our Guru is not around to give his opinion. The tech told me that time-serting is a waste of time and that the timeserts will eventually pull. He has timeserted engines only to have the timesert pull when he torqued the head bolt. I have never liked this tech's arrogant attitude and have taken what he says with a grain of salt, but this has been in be back of my head for about 6 months. I think this tech is a cancer. But what do you think of his statements? Why has he timeserted engines and had the timesert pull? Any thoughts? Mike, I am having timeserts done as we speak, now is not the time to question them LOL. I wonder the same things you do about these, I sure hope your tech is wrong and the other folks on this thread are right. One other thing to note is that the service writer was not familiar with the term timesert. He did say that helicoils will not work and what they use is a solid insert, he just wasn't sure if the brand was timesert or not. Should I be concerned? Is there anything else out there that is a solid insert other then timeserts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommysls Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 I recently had head gaskets replaced and timeserted on my 98 sls. Total cost was $3200. I was lucky enough to find a quality mechanic to do the work. Make sure you find a knowledgable and dependable mechanic who will follow the manual instructions perfectly. You should also be able to visit frequently and watch work in progress, as it is a labor intesive job. Good Luck tommysls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommysls Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 also - beware of dealers. my local dealer quated me a price of $698.00 in parts plus 25 to 30 hours of labor at $140 hr. when I asked to see a copy of the parts list - there were no timeserts listed. they called them head bolt inserts. you MUST USE TIMESERTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 .... One other thing to note is that the service writer was not familiar with the term timesert. He did say that helicoils will not work and what they use is a solid insert, he just wasn't sure if the brand was timesert or not. Should I be concerned? Is there anything else out there that is a solid insert other then timeserts? Could someone explain to the group where the "service writer" fits into the heirarchy of dealership employees? What are the qualifications for the job title? One of the last times I darkened the service department of a large Cadillac-only dealer in the Dallas, TX area, the service writer did not know how to open the hood of my '98 Seville. I asked him to open the exit door and let me and my car out of there as soon as possible. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Recently I was in my local Caddy dealer and the head-gasket tech, made a statement that I have been reluctant to mention. The reason I have not mentioned it, is because our Guru is not around to give his opinion. The tech told me that time-serting is a waste of time and that the timeserts will eventually pull. He has timeserted engines only to have the timesert pull when he torqued the head bolt. I have never liked this tech's arrogant attitude and have taken what he says with a grain of salt, but this has been in be back of my head for about 6 months. I think this tech is a cancer. But what do you think of his statements? Why has he timeserted engines and had the timesert pull? Any thoughts? Mike, I am having timeserts done as we speak, now is not the time to question them LOL. I wonder the same things you do about these, I sure hope your tech is wrong and the other folks on this thread are right. One other thing to note is that the service writer was not familiar with the term timesert. He did say that helicoils will not work and what they use is a solid insert, he just wasn't sure if the brand was timesert or not. Should I be concerned? Is there anything else out there that is a solid insert other then timeserts? He probably does not know the manufacturer name for the inserts but by the description, I'd say that he is describing a Timesert. Ask the writer to verify that with the tech. to be sure. If they are using the Kent-Moore Kit "J-xxx", then that is the timesert kit. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etcxtc Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 What amazes me about Cadillac is that they want you to pay $40K or more for a vechicle and then they want you to bring it back to the dealer for service. Many (not all) times the Cadillac service techs aren't even qualified to work on a lawn mower. Go figure. After my last A/C compressor died, I'm really losing confidence in dealer service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Recently I was in my local Caddy dealer and the head-gasket tech, made a statement that I have been reluctant to mention. The reason I have not mentioned it, is because our Guru is not around to give his opinion. The tech told me that time-serting is a waste of time and that the timeserts will eventually pull. He has timeserted engines only to have the timesert pull when he torqued the head bolt. I have never liked this tech's arrogant attitude and have taken what he says with a grain of salt, but this has been in be back of my head for about 6 months. I think this tech is a cancer. But what do you think of his statements? Why has he timeserted engines and had the timesert pull? Any thoughts? Well, putting aside for the moment the presumed fact that he *might be an idiot*, I'm still left wondering just precisely WHAT his suggested alternative is. Also Scotty, since I live nearby, I'd really like to know exactly which dealership you are referring to. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Recently I was in my local Caddy dealer and the head-gasket tech, made a statement that I have been reluctant to mention. The reason I have not mentioned it, is because our Guru is not around to give his opinion. The tech told me that time-serting is a waste of time and that the timeserts will eventually pull. He has timeserted engines only to have the timesert pull when he torqued the head bolt. I have never liked this tech's arrogant attitude and have taken what he says with a grain of salt, but this has been in be back of my head for about 6 months. I think this tech is a cancer. But what do you think of his statements? Why has he timeserted engines and had the timesert pull? Any thoughts? Mike, I am having timeserts done as we speak, now is not the time to question them LOL. I wonder the same things you do about these, I sure hope your tech is wrong and the other folks on this thread are right. One other thing to note is that the service writer was not familiar with the term timesert. He did say that helicoils will not work and what they use is a solid insert, he just wasn't sure if the brand was timesert or not. Should I be concerned? Is there anything else out there that is a solid insert other then timeserts? I would not worry, as Kevin said, this was the first time we heard of a time-sert pulling out. This Cadillac major-surgery mechanic has been doing the same job for at least 3 years, he has a bad attitude that I have complained about, and he is negative about the NS. I can't help but think that his attitude is a major part of the problem. You know you old story, what you think comes true? I have complained that he is TOO close to the sales department and TOO close to the parts department and his negative attitude is damaging sales. His latest statement that time-serting is not affective rubbed me the wrong way however. I am in a bad mood today and have a good mind to call management again about this guy. I believe that other mechanics should be rotated through the major-surgery department. Warren, I sent you a PM with the dealer name, I don't think its prudent for me to make negative statements in a public forum like this. At some point there will be internet slander suits. Given that I don't have proof of what this guy said it would be my word against his. Maybe next time I will bring a digital voice recorder as the tech loves to spew venom about the Northstar. It would then be interesting to send that recording to his management, I think he needs a change. I am sure the UNION would never allow it, but if he was stripped to do tune-ups and oil changes, maybe he would gain an appreciation of his job again and stop the negative statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 All the GM techs must pass a specific amount of training before they can work on a specific vehicle. Many times, dealership management prevents them from doing the job properly. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 I believe the timesert is much stronger than the original tapped hole So a timesert pulling out something must have been done wrong installing them. The tech who did mine has torn apart well over 300 NS engines and when I asked how many came back that were not timeserted he mentioned about 15 Then I asked how many came back that were timeserted his answer was none. So I went with timeserting on one of mine But time will tell if they hold.. So far it has been good but I only put 5k on the egine since the rings and pistons were replaced for an oil consumption issue.. Most tech do not like to timesert the engines do to the time involved in do them and warranty does not pay them that much to do them So if they can pass on doing one most of them do. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Thanks Jim, that is what we have heard that they are near bullet proof afterward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Warren, I sent you a PM with the dealer name, I don't think its prudent for me to make negative statements in a public forum like this. At some point there will be internet slander suits. Given that I don't have proof of what this guy said it would be my word against his. Maybe next time I will bring a digital voice recorder as the tech loves to spew venom about the Northstar. It would then be interesting to send that recording to his management, I think he needs a change. I am sure the UNION would never allow it, but if he was stripped to do tune-ups and oil changes, maybe he would gain an appreciation of his job again and stop the negative statements. Thanks Scotty, I got your PM and it was as expected and also appreciated. Yes, we need to be careful what we post. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brmurph Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Since I am having the head gaskets replaced I really wanted to verify that the dealer was using timesert brand inserts. My service adviser has been great, he setup a meeting with the shop foreman who showed me the kits that they use (and yes they are timesert brand). The foreman also mentioned that they always timesert all holes as he agreed just doing the bad ones will cause headaches later on. He said that they have had hardly any problems with the timeserts, if they are installed correctly that they will last. He also said they follow the latest bulletins for torquing the head gasket (I didn't even ask, he just volunteered that info). Only time will tell if he is right but I got to tell you I feel much better after talking to the foreman, the fact that he took 20 minutes out of his busy day just to make me feel better about the timeserts really says something about customer service in my opinion. Much better experience then what Mike had :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Since I am having the head gaskets replaced I really wanted to verify that the dealer was using timesert brand inserts. My service adviser has been great, he setup a meeting with the shop foreman who showed me the kits that they use (and yes they are timesert brand). The foreman also mentioned that they always timesert all holes as he agreed just doing the bad ones will cause headaches later on. He said that they have had hardly any problems with the timeserts, if they are installed correctly that they will last. He also said they follow the latest bulletins for torquing the head gasket (I didn't even ask, he just volunteered that info). Only time will tell if he is right but I got to tell you I feel much better after talking to the foreman, the fact that he took 20 minutes out of his busy day just to make me feel better about the timeserts really says something about customer service in my opinion. Much better experience then what Mike had :-) Glad to hear you are having a good experience, let us know how it turns out, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_99_sts Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 What amazes me about Cadillac is that they want you to pay $40K or more for a vechicle and then they want you to bring it back to the dealer for service. I would make a different statement - Cadillac sells a $40K+ car that will cost $3K+ to fix a head gasket My brother-in-law just had his '98 Deville head gasket job, and I'm crossing all my fingers and toes that my '99 STS will not need it anytime soon. I would pay it because the engine will be better than new afterwards, but it's hardly going to give me good feelings towards future GM purchases. All luxury cars have their issues I guess, but I wonder which other aluminum block cars have the same factory problem (Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, ...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brmurph Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 What amazes me about Cadillac is that they want you to pay $40K or more for a vechicle and then they want you to bring it back to the dealer for service. I would make a different statement - Cadillac sells a $40K+ car that will cost $3K+ to fix a head gasket My brother-in-law just had his '98 Deville head gasket job, and I'm crossing all my fingers and toes that my '99 STS will not need it anytime soon. I would pay it because the engine will be better than new afterwards, but it's hardly going to give me good feelings towards future GM purchases. All luxury cars have their issues I guess, but I wonder which other aluminum block cars have the same factory problem (Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, ...). I somewhat agree with your statement expecially if the timeserts don't hold. The other side of this is that I really enjoy driving this car, easly worth 4K to me if the timserts really do hold up. In my case I just hope this is not the start of a bunch of expensive repair bills. My Uncle had 107,000 miles on his 96 STS when his head bolts pulled (he sold it cheap and went to Lexus, too bad and yes I know Lexus has problems also). I really have to believe this is a very common problem (mine at 99,000 my uncles at 107,000). The other thing that doesn't make much sense to me (and I know Mike will disagree with this statement, sorry Mike) is that if this is a small problem why doesn't Cadillac just pay for the repair under good will (you know perception is everything), and if this is a big problem then shouldn't Cadillac have "some" responsibility? The biggest reason I want the timeserts to work is that I want my next car to be a caddy as well, but if the Northstar only last 100,000 before the bolts pull and the timeserts don't work, I don't see how my next car can be a caddy (wife would kill me ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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