etcxtc Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 On Monday, I got the dreaded message "Very Low Refrigerant" A/C Compressor Off" on my '97 ETC. I had driven about 60 miles, shut the car off and went in for an appointment. Came out an hour later and no A/C. The system had been working fine. It produced a nice Artic blast throughout the very hot summer we had here. I took the car into the Caddy dealership that does my service on Tuesday. They found a leak in the system and the piston in the compressor was in pieces! I wish I'd had my camera. It was a mess! Thankfully my extended warranty picked up the tab of $874 and change. I'm going to miss my warranty when it runs out next October! Here's my question. In September 2002 I had to have the compressor et al, replaced. Now three years later and only 27,000 miles I've had to replace it all again. What gives? Is the service tech not getting all the debris out of the system. It just seem bizarre. Also I've also gone through two alternators in two years. Anything to these incidents related? Just speculating here... Any ideas guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 My guess is that the system was not properly flushed or an improper amount or improper specification of oil (viscosity) was utilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etcxtc Posted October 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 I've trusted the dealer service department in the past. Now I'm beginning not to feel so comfortable about using them. An A/C compressor just shouldn't die after 27,000 miles. Trying to find a good independent shop is like looking for a needle-in-a-haystack here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 What did the compressor fail of 27K miles ago? If the innards failed and threw debris, it may have been contained in the condensor. I replaced my condensor as they are too hard to flush out.. However, I am not sure how debris would get by the orifice tube. Maybe Kevin can help with this.... You never know, maybe the wrong amount or wrong viscosity oil was used, it Pag 75 vs Pag 150. I am curious what Kevin thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 How did the previous compressor fail? Without knowing that we're just speculating. It should have lasted longer than 27,000 miles though... If the second compressor failed in the manner that the dealer described, I would verify that they removed the orifice tube, accumulator, and condenser, then flushed the evaporator and lines. The accumulator and condenser should have also been replaced. The reason is that the condenser will retain debris that can't be flushed out. That debris will destroy a new compressor prematurely. My guess, based on the amount of the bill, is that they just installed a new compressor.... Were the alternators new Delco alternators or chain store rebuilds? Chain store remans are trash. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etcxtc Posted October 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 The original compressor which failed in 2002 was due to a piston failure also. Mileage was about 54,000. Both of the compressors were/are new A/C Delcos. The parts replaced were the compressor and the orifice tube on both repairs. I'm beginning to suspect that the warranty company may be tying the hands of my dealer when it comes to the "extra measure" of a "complete" repair. I don't know this for sure, but I'm going to find out tomorrow. More to follow..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 IF they did not flush the system and replace the condenser and accumulator, that is the root cause of the premature compressor failure. The condensers trap debris when a compressor fails and it is difficult to flush out the parallel flow condensers. The remaining debris takes out the replacement compressor. In the R-12 days - the condensers were the serpentine type and could be flushed easily. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 .... ....it is difficult to flush out the parallel flow condensers. The remaining debris takes out the replacement compressor. In the R-12 days - the condensers were the serpentine type and could be flushed easily. Does parallel flow offer 'new and improved' heat transfer, or is there some other reason / advantage? Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 IF they did not flush the system and replace the condenser and accumulator, that is the root cause of the premature compressor failure. The condensers trap debris when a compressor fails and it is difficult to flush out the parallel flow condensers. The remaining debris takes out the replacement compressor. In the R-12 days - the condensers were the serpentine type and could be flushed easily. Kevin, how does the debris get back to the compressor if the orifice tube is in the line, will the drbris, back up from the condenser to the compressor to do damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 IF they did not flush the system and replace the condenser and accumulator, that is the root cause of the premature compressor failure. The condensers trap debris when a compressor fails and it is difficult to flush out the parallel flow condensers. The remaining debris takes out the replacement compressor. In the R-12 days - the condensers were the serpentine type and could be flushed easily. Kevin, how does the debris get back to the compressor if the orifice tube is in the line, will the drbris, back up from the condenser to the compressor to do damage? The orifice tube has a screen - it is not an inline filter so some of the smaller junk can get by it. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 .... ....it is difficult to flush out the parallel flow condensers. The remaining debris takes out the replacement compressor. In the R-12 days - the condensers were the serpentine type and could be flushed easily. Does parallel flow offer 'new and improved' heat transfer, or is there some other reason / advantage? Yes - improved heat transfer. That's one of the reasons why many R-12 cars that are retrofitted to R-134a do not cool as well as they did when they were R-12. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 Oh, I was under the impression that nothing could get by the orifice tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Oh, I was under the impression that nothing could get by the orifice tube. Your right, nothing *EVER* gets by the office boob. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Oh, I was under the impression that nothing could get by the orifice tube. Your right, nothing *EVER* gets by the office boob. Regards, Warren Warren, I am not sure what you mean by that comment. I am not sure if it is arrogance nor I am not sure if its an attempt at humor but that is twice now you have directed ambiguous undermining statements in my direction. Please back off me. I am sure that bobnsue2 (see link) is aware that others know about the 91 4.9, but you did not allow me allow me to acquiesce gracefully and you posed as a traffic cop. Mabybe its the New York in you. I was embarrised by the direct attention (Hi, Scotty), but let me react to it. Given that I have over 5000 posts, I am bound to get direct attention by default even if I am not a GM engineer. I am sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. If you have noticed, I have never been reluctant to direct members with problems to others that have more specific experience than I. BUT, I also rise to a challenge when someone needs help as many of us do. http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7662 Since the orifice tube is a FINE mesh. In my mind, I can NOT see anything large enough getting by the orifice tube that could damage the compressor. See the photo below of a clogged orifice tube. The mesh is very fine. So how particles large enough to damage the compressor get by it given that it is sealed in the bore with an O-RING, I don't understand. The only way I could see problems arising is that debris backs up from the condenser to the compressor due to the on and off cycling with a clogged orifice tube that creates high back pressure, DRIVING the debris BACKWARDS into the compressor. THAT debris is LARGE enough to damage the compressor. That is why I deferred to Kevin our AC expert for an explanation to gain a better understanding. I always defer to more knowledgable individuals. Not doing so is a SURE way to fail and to cease learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobnsue2 Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi Scotty, Having grown up in NY state, I saw a lot of sarcasm. I moved to California many years ago and one of the reasons was while in the air force I found the locals in Ca had a much nicer attitude. Beside the other reasons like tired of shovelling snow,humidity,etc. I think you, Scotty are a very great asset to this list. Keep it up. Bob B (bobnsue2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etcxtc Posted October 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 I talked to my Service Writer today. I only go to this one particular SW. He has always been great and shoots straight, or I though so. I've been taking my Caddys to him for over five years now. Now I'm concerned about the shop practices after our discussion. Here's what I learned: 1. Piston in compressor disintegrated. (Already knew that one.) 2. Replaced compressor and orifice tube. (Already knew these also.) 3. They DO NOT flush accumulators or condensers unless pressure readings tell them otherwise. 4. They DO NOT replace accumulators or condensers unless they cannot be cleared by flushing. 5. They have not replaced a accumulator due to a failed compressor in the 13 years he has worked there that he can remember. 6. Flushing a condenser is a very rare operation for the shop. 7. They rely on the orifice tube (A 25 cent piece of plastic and fine fish net) to screen any and all debris from the system. 8. I didn't matter if I had an extended warranty or not. Their repair/replacement would have been exactly the same. I have a sinking feeling that I'll be replacing a compressor/orifice tube/accumulator/condenser in another 27,000 miles or less. Now I'm questioning the service they have performed on my Caddys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Kevin, Oh Kevin...... I am VERY curious what KHE has to say. I will reserve my comments... LOL... I did my AC compressor in June I replaced the compressor replaced the Accumulator replaced the condensor replaced the orifice tube replaced 2 sensors replaced all o-rings flushed the entire system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 I talked to my Service Writer today. I only go to this one particular SW. He has always been great and shoots straight, or I though so. I've been taking my Caddys to him for over five years now. Now I'm concerned about the shop practices after our discussion. Here's what I learned: 1. Piston in compressor disintegrated. (Already knew that one.) 2. Replaced compressor and orifice tube. (Already knew these also.) 3. They DO NOT flush accumulators or condensers unless pressure readings tell them otherwise. 4. They DO NOT replace accumulators or condensers unless they cannot be cleared by flushing. 5. They have not replaced a accumulator due to a failed compressor in the 13 years he has worked there that he can remember. 6. Flushing a condenser is a very rare operation for the shop. 7. They rely on the orifice tube (A 25 cent piece of plastic and fine fish net) to screen any and all debris from the system. 8. I didn't matter if I had an extended warranty or not. Their repair/replacement would have been exactly the same. I have a sinking feeling that I'll be replacing a compressor/orifice tube/accumulator/condenser in another 27,000 miles or less. Now I'm questioning the service they have performed on my Caddys! Accumulators cannot be flushed - they must be replaced. Parallel flow condensers are typically not flushed - they are replaced as it is difficult to flush them and remove all traces of debris and the flush solvent. In the days of R-12 and serpentine condensers, they were flushed all the time. The things that concern me with your system is that if there was any trace of debris left in the line from the compressor to the orifice tube, that debris may make it's way back to the new compressor and reduce it's life. Many compressor warranties will not be honored if the accumulator isn't replaced. It's one thing if the accumulator is only a couple of years old and the system wasn't left open for an extended period of time. It is a totally different story if the system is left open (or leaked out) for a week or more - then I would insist on an accumulator replacement. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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