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K&N CTS


Bruce Nunnally

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Found this interesting graph that I had not seen -- dyno runs by K&N on

their inhouse dynojet I assume of a CTS stock and with a filter pack

like I had on my 2004. I always assumed when they said 14hp gain

they meant at the crank not at the wheels, so interesting.

57-3042.jpg

Also, with 20% losses for an automatic (3.6L in 2004) stock 203 / .8 = 253 hp at the crank (rated 255 hp). Modified 217 hp / .8 = 271 hp at the crank. Also makes sense that it was a 3rd gear run vs 4th gear, since you hit the speed limiter in 4th gear even on the dyno.

The base dyno numbers are interesting regardless of bias.

Hope I see an improvement like this with the Volant CAI I have

on order for the 2005.

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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This one for the 2003 CTS with 3.2L V6:

57-3040.jpg

Crank translations: 227hp stock; 243hp with K&N, assuming this was a automatic transmission car with 20% losses. These were rated 220 hp at the crank, so a nice base run for this one, or this was a manual car, in which case base run of 181.75 / .85 = 214hp?

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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Yeah, that style of filter seems to work alright in the CTS, but the Northstar just doesn't like them. Every engine responds differently, some good some bad.

Well. I was thinking more along the lines of, "K&N's let in more dirt." Like everyone keeps telling me. Yet it seems like you guys are promoting it for the CTS.. :rolleyes:

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Ehhh...I wouldn't promote it for anything built after 1974, but that's just me.

Ok. Ya know. I don't get some of you guys. A motor is a motor. And dirt is dirt. Is it just personal preference on what you think will happen with K&N or mods on these cars. I post about modding my airbox and putting a K&N. All I get is "NO", "don't", "it will do more bad then good". I just don't get it. :unsure:

So CTS's run better on dirt, but my 4.6 doesn't?? :rolleyes:

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Use it! Its no big deal, don't feel bad about it, just use it..you have proved your car runs better, so why not? Its does not matter what we think does it? You have proved your point so, go to it. What.... do you have apprehension because of our resistance? Don't. We have gone head to head in the past with people regarding warrantees, injector cleaner, tires, etc.. you are not the first to come hear with an opinion.. If you are happy with your results, do it, don't moan about it..we don't care, we give our opinion and that's that... Opinions vary

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Use it! Its no big deal, don't feel bad about it, just use it..you have proved your car runs better, so why not?  Its does not matter what we think does it?  You have proved your point so, go to it.  What.... do you have apprehension because of our resistance?  Don't.  We have gone head to head in the past with people regarding warrantees, injector cleaner, tires, etc.. you are not the first to come hear with an opinion..  If you are happy with your results, do it, don't moan about it..

No. I'm gonna do what I want. That's not the problem. I just don't get the different responses on the same mod on different cars. No offence to any of you guys. I'm just wondering why there's 100% agreeing with the CTS being done. But when I posted about my STS it was like I was about to strap a bomb to my car. That's all.

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Use it! Its no big deal, don't feel bad about it, just use it..you have proved your car runs better, so why not?  Its does not matter what we think does it?  You have proved your point so, go to it.  What.... do you have apprehension because of our resistance?   Don't.  We have gone head to head in the past with people regarding warrantees, injector cleaner, tires, etc.. you are not the first to come hear with an opinion..  If you are happy with your results, do it, don't moan about it..

No. I'm gonna do what I want. That's not the problem. I just don't get the different responses on the same mod on

You are going to run into all types here. Some who are like you, and some who are NOT like you. You will run into people like MARK who has added LSD and plans turbos (and you can't argue with Mark's performance and efforts) and you will run into others who believe in the design and believe in the engineers who designed the Northstar (one of whom we had a close relationship with) and want to keep things stock, and they will NOT like your approach, and guess what, YOU don't have to like the opinion of people who are happy with stock OEM (they have valid reasoning)....This is an exchange of ideas. The key here is to have an open mind, you want US to be open to your, what I personally would call buchery, but you fail to keep an open mind to others... Lighten up, if you get better performance with your K&N, and you don't mind sucking in more dirt (and that is a fact), more power to you (no pun intended), Enjoy...You can always have the engine rebuilt or buy another car.

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Use it! Its no big deal, don't feel bad about it, just use it..you have proved your car runs better, so why not?  Its does not matter what we think does it?  You have proved your point so, go to it.  What.... do you have apprehension because of our resistance?   Don't.  We have gone head to head in the past with people regarding warrantees, injector cleaner, tires, etc.. you are not the first to come hear with an opinion..  If you are happy with your results, do it, don't moan about it..

No. I'm gonna do what I want. That's not the problem. I just don't get the different responses on the same mod on

You are going to run into all types here. Some who are like you, and some who are NOT like you. You will run into people like MARK who has added LSD and plans turbos and you will run into others who believe in the design and want to keep things stock, and they will NOT like your approach, and guess what YOU don't have to like the opinion of people who are happy with stock OEM.... The key here is to have an open mind, you want US to be open to your, what I personally would call buchery, but you fail to keep an open mind to others... Lighten up, if you get better performance with your K&N, and you don't mind sucking in more dirt (and that is a fact), more power to you (no pun intended), Enjoy...

I totally agree. But I already know guys have different views. That's cool. That's a given. I can't change anyone nor expect change. Just thought it was funny how the same mod on two different cars got different reactions by the same people. Kinda odd. Anyways. More power to everyone on here. No matter what you do. And with that. Good night :)

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one interesting observation regarding the power graphs: they start at 4100 and 4500 rpm...there is ALOT of territory under those numbers and that's where most of your driving occurs. generally with the aftermarket intake systems there is a definite loss of bottom end toque and power. some of the guys who have used a drop-in k%n went back to the stock filter because of the lost power on the bottom.

the k&n's don't filter as well as the stock filters but they do meet the mininum standards set forth by the manfr''s...jackg 90seville 98k

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Speedy, relax. All Bruce did was post a dyno graph from K&N showing results for their FIPK, which is much different than a filter, by the way. Notice on your Northstar, there really is no intake tract...the filter box is located VERY close to the engine. Not much room for improvement. Some other cars (perhaps like the CTS) have a much longer intake tube that may pose a restriction.

Like jackg said, those dyno graphs are conspicuously "mum" at engine speeds under 4000 rpm. I wonder if that's because their product loses power down low? Who knows.

Performance and dirt are two different things. Nobody's going back on what we said earlier. You asked about K&N filters for your Northstar. Most of us who have tried them on a Northstar don't like them. Performance was sometimes screwey and there are repeated tests that show they pass more dirt. It's up to you if you want to run that on your car. It was most of our opinions that it wasn't worth it, because there are minimal gains to be had on a Northstar.

Bruce posted a chart for a CTS. Apples and oranges as far as performance. It would still not be my decision to install an aftermarket filter on whatever I owned, regardless of the performance gain, because of the filtering capacity, but that's my personal choice. It's your choice too, whether you agree with our opinions or not. I don't see anyone in this thread go against something they already said.

Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond)

"When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?"

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Get a UOA (used oil analysis) and check the silicon levels. If the air filter is letting in more dirt, it will show up in the oil as elevated silicon level. Silicon is very hard (think - sand) and will increase the rate of wear inside the engine. The UOA may also show up higher levels of metals (iron, aluminum) which would be a warning sign not to ignore.

Lower air resistance in the filter can increase hp in many engines, that's not a shock to anyone. Does it come at the cost of increased engine wear due to poorer filtering? You will need to find out in your particular application. Several K&N users over at the bobistheoilguy forums noticed elevated silicon levels and stopped using the K&N, went back to regular OEM paper filters (not specifically in Cadillac applications, just a general trend). Another possible problem is that the K&N's often don't fit the airbox as snuggly as OEM paper filters, increasing the likelihood of air leaking around the sides of the filter. That air will of course by 100% unfiltered. If you notice a loose fit, maybe use vaseline around the edge or something to improve the seal.

An imprecise but useful indicator is to run the K&N for a few months, then remove it and see how clean the air path is after the filter. Clean enough to eat food off, or dusty?

Putting in a K&N is not a slam dunk. Ask yourself if a filter with the same inlet and outlet area as the OEM can simultaneously reduce resistance and improve filtration. Get a UOA to check your installation for engine wear indicators. Also note that the K&N filtering will improve over time as the filter gets clogged up. A clogged foam filter has smaller gaps in the lattice and traps new dirt more readily.

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You guys are halarious!

One minute K&N is BAD!!!, then its GOOD!!!

Flip a coin, and decide, or what?

Come on?

Big Jay :angry:

Life is too short to grow up!

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Did I just completely misunderstand this entire thread? I don't see ANYONE who has double-talked on this thread. Bruce himself has never bad-mouthed K&N filters, and he posted positive performance numbers for a CTS. Those of us who don't care for K&N filters do so because we don't like the potential for increased dirt, and they are shown not to give an increase on a Northstar car.

Nothing has contradicted itself here!! I don't understand why a few are so confused, and think that we're wishy-washy. Show me an instance where one of us has said two completely different things on this topic??

Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond)

"When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?"

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The first graph is quite funny; how could both runs have occurred at precisely 3:33:17 PM??? A dynamometer is only a measuring tool; it is impossible to draw any conclusions based on the provided data. How repeatable are those observations? What is the variance? What was the exhaust temperature prior to each run? Oil temperature? There are many more unknowns. Many cars will show a few more HP on the second run, without any changes!

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The time stamp seemed odd to me as well. Since it is to the second one would think the dynojet adds it. I am always glad to see more information though. One of the LS1 forums has a database of LS1 dyno runs that shows a range of 30 or 40 hp among different stock engine dyno results; I would like to see something like that for the 3.6L DOHC VVT engine, to see what kind of normal production range the hp/torque have.

These graphs were as interesting to me for the 'before' curves as the 'after'...

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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Did I just completely misunderstand this entire thread? I don't see ANYONE who has double-talked on this thread. Bruce himself has never bad-mouthed K&N filters, and he posted positive performance numbers for a CTS. Those of us who don't care for K&N filters do so because we don't like the potential for increased dirt, and they are shown not to give an increase on a Northstar car.

Nothing has contradicted itself here!! I don't understand why a few are so confused, and think that we're wishy-washy. Show me an instance where one of us has said two completely different things on this topic??

All you gotta do is look back, and you too will see.

I really don't care if there is an issue, just speedyman2 is probably scratchin his head. I know I would be if I were him?

Big Jay <_<

Life is too short to grow up!

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All you gotta do is look back, and you too will see.

Sorry man, it's just not there. Those of us who have always disliked K&N filters still do. Those of us who have always wanted to try them and experiment with them still do. No reason to get confused here; any Internet forum will be filled with folks of different persuation and opinion.

Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond)

"When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?"

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Since were offering our opinions here, i'll give mine. In addition to my 94 seville, I've also until recently, owned a few stockcars that i raced on the Nascar weekly series. They all had K+N filters for the increased air flow which is what we were looking for. But we changed the oil every week too and rebuilt the motors every winter. Would I use one on my seville ??..............No. I'd stick with a stock type filter. I'm happy with the way the car runs and drives as it is and don't need the extra perfomance on the street. But, this is just my personal opinion, If you want to use one, go ahead, it's your choice

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Since were offering our opinions here, i'll give mine. In addition to my 94 seville, I've also until recently, owned a few stockcars that i raced on the Nascar weekly series. They all had K+N filters for the increased air flow which is what we were looking for. But we changed the oil every week too and rebuilt the motors every winter.  Would I use one on my seville ??..............No. I'd stick with a stock type filter. I'm happy with the way the car runs and drives as it is and don't need the extra perfomance on the street. But, this is just my personal opinion, If you want to use one, go ahead, it's your choice

Thanks for that input. Actual experience and unique perspective is always helpful.

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