productionx

Seville STS 1993 Acts like its in ACCESSORY after KEY OFF

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I bought a 1993 Seville STS a few months back, I've put around 1200 miles on it since acquiring and recently found I was having an issue where the car acts like the key is in accessory after removing the key.

 

This seems to co-inside to a recent event where I found the brake lines were junk and had them replaced to the rear.  It is entirely possible while the mechanic was working on that he hit a ground or something triggering this.

I combed through this link for some ideas http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/1474-accessory-power-problem-help/

However I am working with a Seville not a Deville, was hoping you gents could give me some good images to work with regarding tracking down grounds, relays, sensors.

I do have Alldata BUT only on the 99 Seville which I know to get the generation after the 92-97.  I also have a 1997 Seville STS that I can harvest parts from if needed or they fit.

Thanks guys!

 

 

 

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Can you decribe the symptom a different way?

 Cadillacs often have a retained power feature.  This works by letting the radio continue to play or other accessories until you open the door to get out.  That way. If you simply stop the car but want to finish the current song you can.


Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black; 2013 Cadillac ATS 2L Turbo Premium (Wife's)

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Retained power feature I am familiar with, but this is something different.

I turn ignition to position LOCK/OFF and key is removed.

Dash, Radio turn off as normal.

About 5-10 seconds after this you see the Tachometer needle kick up and it is as if the car is in Accessory power.

Fan belts kick on, radio turns on, dash is on without a fuel reading[claims LO when ~150miles left on tank and gauge is accurate].

Opening any door will trigger this as well.

 

The first couple times it happened I was able to turn car back on and off again and get it to 'stay off',  It is now at the point where I have been disconnecting the battery everytime I park as it will not kill the elect after ANY set time.

 

Thanks for responding Bruce, I hope this answer helps make more sense of the problems.

 

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This may seem like a strange question - what was the ambient temperature?

To prevent mold and odor issues in the evaporator case, Cadillac and dealerships installed an after-blow module that would operate the cooling fans and the blower motor for a short time after key off and after RAP was off. No other systems should have been powered up though. How long will the power-up situation last if you do not remove the battery cable?

The majority of the grounds are inside the vehicle. G100 grounds are under the hood, G200 grounds are inside at the "A" pillar, G300 grounds are rear of the "B" pillar but not behind the rear seat, G400 grounds are behind the rear seat usually in the trunk. For example -- if All-data or a wiring diagram shows the ground is at G201that would be passenger side "A" pillar behind the kick panel.

The coincidence with the brake line replacement may, or may not be an issue. Have a good look under the vehicle especially at the right rear, that is the location of the level ride pump and sensor. Maybe a damaged wire at one of the connectors??? Perhaps the mechanic had to remove the fuel tank and damaged some wiring there. I would be contacting the repair shop and asking them about what components they removed, and requesting they recheck their work, for free....


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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OldCadTech really does have a good idea.

I would check to see if a HVAC afterblow kit has been installed. Sounds like it may be wired up incorrectly....maybe the wrong one....or maybe failing causing a phantom circuit. GM did sell afterblow kits. 

Later models had the HVAC afterblow feature built in and could be enabled using a Tech 2. 

Looking on Google....There are several versions of GM / AC Delco afterblow modules. See pics.

 

Other ideas....aftermarket radio or alarm system installed? Or maybe a failing ignition switch (not key cylinder) or failing RAP module. 

 

acmusty.JPG

acmusty2.JPG

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Temperature is mid 60s, was in 40s yesterday or the day before.

I pulled the fuses upfront and the two circled fuses are hot when the battery is connected[see attached picture].

I got a good view under the driver side path of the brake lines and was pissed to find out that the lines were not run properly(literally just pulled underneath the car in a straight path).  So I am willing to bet there is in fact wire damage or a disconnected cable somewhere causing power to flow.

CJ2 : HVAC SYSTEM AIR CONDITIONER FRT, AUTO TEMP CONT is the RPO code for the HVAC unit.  I called the dealer that originally sold the car, but they don't have any records on it any longer.  The unit is still the original stock unit.

 

I am open to trying anything, so I don't have to keep pulling the battery terminal off every trip.

 

 

Here are the rest of the RPO codes if it helps at all:

AX5        AN3       AU0       AU4       BF4         BW2       B19         B25         B58         B77         B89         B90         CJ2

AX5 : PARTITION, EXPANDED METAL, LEFT SIDE

AN3 : SEAT, FRT BKT, DRIV, PASS, ELEC BODY SUPT CONT

AU0 : LOCK CONTROL, REM0TE ENTRY

AU4 : LOCK CONTROL, SIDE DR, ELEC, AUT0MATIC

BF4 : COVERING, FLOOR CARPET, CUSTOM

BW2 : MOLDING B/S, DELUXE

B19 : ORNAMENTATION, INTR, CUSTOM

B25 : TRIM EQUIPMENT LUGG COMPT, DELUXE

B58 : COVERING, FLOOR MATS FRT & RR, CARPETED INSERT

B77 : ORNAMENTATION, EXTR MLDG W/S REVEAL, COLORED

B89 : ORNAMENTATION, EXTR MLDG, RR WINDOW REVEAL,
B90 : ORNAMENTATION, EXTR MLDG, SIDE WINDOW REVEAL

CJ2 : HVAC SYSTEM AIR CONDITIONER FRT, AUTO TEMP CONT

 

 

CO1        DD8        DEH        DG6       D55        FE3         FV4        IK5          JL9          KA1        KG9        L37         MW1    

C01 : ORNAMENTATION, EXTR EMBLEM, BODY, VAR 2

DD8 : MIRROR I/S, R/V, LT SENSITIVE

DEH: DETROIT PLANT

DG6 : MIRROR O/S, LH & RH, REM CONT, ELEC, DEFOG, TINTED

D55 : CONSOLE, FRT COMPT, FLOOR

FE3 : SUSPENSION SYSTEM, SPORT

FV4 : RATIO, TRANSAXLE FINAL DRIVE 3.71

IK5?

JL9 : BRAKE, SYSTEM, PWR, FRT a RR OISC, ANTILOCK, FRT W

KA1 : HEATER SEAT

KG9 : GENERATOR, 140 AMP ]

L37 : ENGINE, GAS, 8 CYL, 4.6L, V8 OHC

WRONG! MW1 : TRANSMISSION, MAN 5 SPD, 80RG WARNER, 77MM, 4.03

MXD      NA5       NP5        NV7       NW9      PF4         QVF       TL1         T46         T93         T96         UA6       UQ4

MXD?

NA5 : EMISSION SYSTEM, FEDERAL, TIER O

NP5 : LEATHER WRAPPED, STEERING WHEEL AND SHIFT KNOB

NV7 : STEERING, POWER, VARIABLE EFFORT

NW9 : TRACTION CONTROL, ELECTRONIC

PF4 : WHEEL, 16 X 7, ALUMINUM

QVF : TIRE ALL, P225/60ZR16/N BL R/PE ST TL AL3

TL1 : GRILLE, SPECIAL

T46 : HOOD, STEEL

T93 : LAMP, TAIL & STOP, SPECIAL

T96 : LAMP, FOG

UA6 : THEFT DETERENT SYS

UQ4 : SPEAKER SYSTEM, BOSE, 4

 

 

U?Y9      U1G       U75        VB7        VJ6         VK3        V1F        V4R        V73        YL1         YL6         YM1       YM5

UY9 : CLUSTER, KILO & MILES, MECHANICAL DISPLAY

U1G : RADIO, AM STEREO/FM STEREO, P8, SEEK/SCAN AUTO REV

U75 : ANTENNA, POWER, RADIO

VB7 : BUMPER, FRONT AND REAR SPORT

VJ6 : LICENSE PLATE, RR POCKET, DELUXE

VK3 : LICENSE PLATE, FRT MOUNTING PKG

V1F : PAINT, SPECIAL METALLIC - CHARGE

V4R : PROVISION OPTIONS, VEHICLE SECURITY

V73 : ANTENNA, FIXED

YL1 : TRIM OVERRIDE, UPHOLSTERY, LEATHER/VINYL

YL6 : STRIPE COLOR, ACCENT ---- DELETE

YM1 ?

YM5 : STRIPE ACCENT DELETE

 

 

YN6        YN7        YP6         Y22         52F         52I          525         6LR         7LR         8CC        9CC        93U

YN6?

YN7?

YP6 : MERCHANDISED PKG, SEVILLE TOURING SEDAN

Y22?

52F : COVERING COLOR, FLOOR MAT, LT NEUTRAL (92)

52I : INTERIOR TRIM, LT NEUTRAL (I) (92)

525 : TRIM COMBINATION, LEATHER, LT NEUTRAL (S) (92)

6LR?

7LR?

8CC?

9CC?

93U : PRIMARY COLOR, EXTERIOR, WHITE DIAMOND (91)

front-fuses-hot.jpg

Edited by productionx

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As was mentioned.....you should check to see if a afterblow module has been installed. 

GM sold the kits.....some people put them in....some repair shops put them in...some dealers put them in. 

The afterblow module was a solution to smelly and musty AC systems. It was a add on module. It would turn ON....after the car was turned OFF. It would run 5 or 10 minutes or so. It would use the blower motor to continue to circulate air around the evaporator.....reducing mold build up. 

Has nothing to do with what HVAC unit was installed in the car. 

 

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I have scoured the engine bay and I cannot find an afterblow module unless it is found somewhere else?

Maybe this will help?  I get in, close door, its already kicked on the Blower(happens every time i plug the battery back in)  Turn off the blower, turn car over(sounds whiney because I did not put the air housing back on yet).  Shut car off, upon opening door it re-triggers, though had i waited another 5-10 seconds it would have done the same even without opening the door.  Car will stay in this exact manner until battery is dead,

I will dig around in the trunk tomorrow, I believe the RAP module is there if this picture is to be trusted

6086a32c-3111-4703-963d-22eacd4cb0d8_rap

 

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It's been a long time since I've installed an after-blow module but it seems to me they were installed under the dash.

The fact that the blower motor comes on as soon as you reconnect the battery tells me that the vehicle probably has an after-blow module installed. Remove the glove box and look for the module. Reference Logans pictures of the module for ID...

I wouldn't rule out finding the module in the trunk but it would have been a more difficult place to install it.


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Thank you I will go exploring tomorrow. 

 

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Saw the video....not sure a bad RAPIE module can do all that....basically turning the car on..

Here is the image from my 1993 Cadillac service manual. Shows both 4.9 and Northstar RAPIE module. 

rapie93.jpg

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does this car have a remote car starter?

Whether you know it or not it may. It would likely be under the dash on the driver side somewhere. If it does I would immediately disconnect the big plug on it and see if problem continues.

A failing car starter can do many weird things like that

That can be causing your problem

Welcome to CaddyInfo


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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Good thought rockfangd that would definitely turn it back on :shaka:


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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No remote start, just the original keyless entry.

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I definitely do not have one of those afterblowers.  Anything worth checking in this region before I put it back together?

gloveboxout.jpg

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If you need it for a daily driver and you don't like the mess, yes put it back together. I would leave it apart until the problem is located.

I would disconnect the RAP module and see if the problem changes symptoms of goes away. I agree with what Logan said, I can't imagine a RAP module having that much control over the ignition circuit, but since all the modules interconnect and share circuits nothing is ruled out at this point.

Do you have another RAP module with the same number from the other Seville? If so, swap it and see what happens. 

Do a tap test on the PCM and the BCM while the problem is current.

On 10/12/2017 at 8:13 AM, productionx said:

The first couple times it happened I was able to turn car back on and off again and get it to 'stay off',  It is now at the point where I have been disconnecting the battery everytime I park as it will not kill the elect after ANY set time.

Also, the above condition sounds like the ignition switch (not the key cylinder) cross feeding circuits.

As Logan and rockfangd stated make SURE there are no "black boxes" from a remote start "add-on".

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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I will continue the hunt for black boxes tomorrow, put the glovebox back in left the rest disassembled.  Pulled the RAPIE connection, the issue persists.

 

Odd question, if for some reason the Master Control Switch was at fault, could it cause this kind of issue?  My gut feeling tells me no.

I will give the tap test a shot in the morning.

Thanks for the continued support, diagnosing car electrics are definitely not my forte.

 

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What are you referring to as the Master Control Switch? 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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I think he means 'ignition switch'.

Fairly easy to change.....also a favorite area for techs to hack into for alarm systems etc.  

Couple of pics....#80 in first pic is the switch. Column does not have to come apart to replace. 

Pic of column should be pretty close. Saginaw steering column. Pic shows 1993 pick up truck one. 

 

1993column.png

1993x2.JPG

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simply unplugging the ignition switch should tell you if that is at fault.

I kind of doubt that is your issue but it doesnt hurt to test it


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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Yes, it can cause the problem by being out of time or loose and/or moving on the column itself.  Definitely worth a test since you were able to correct the problem before by cycling the ignition switch.

On 10/13/2017 at 3:53 PM, OldCadTech said:

I was able to turn car back on and off again and get it to 'stay off'

Does the key "feel" like it is operating normally? Does it "spring" back from the start position?


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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They key does feel like it is operating correctly.  It does spring back.

I have done some further testing and found out that if i pull "IGN3" the blower does not kick on.  I plugged back in the RAPIE module since its obviously not at fault.  Raised vehicle removed driver front tire to look at electrical connections around ABS unit, not finding anything upfront that appears to be at fault, next will lift rear driver side and inspect.

 

I checked the codes while I had battery connected last, I052 makes sense for battery being disconnected

 

Current:
I052 .......................................................  Keep Alive Memory Error
T072 ........................................................  Serial Data Link Fault
T073 ..........................  PCM - EBTCM/EBCM Pulse Width Modulation Signal Fault
S037 ............................  Electronic Level Control Exhaust Valve Short to B+


History:
S036 ......................  Electronic Level Control Compressor Short to Ground/Open
S038 ...................  Electronic Level Control Exhaust Valve Short to Ground/Open
S044 .....................................................  Lift or Dive Signal Fault
S061 .............................................  Right Front Position Sensor Fault

 

Should I disconnect the Electronic brake control and traction module to test?

 

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did you try unplugging the ignition switch?


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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I would leave the ABS and the trac control alone for now.

With ign 3 fuse pulled do the same symptoms occur, with the exception of the blower motor?

With ign 3 fuse reinstalled, disconnect the ignition switch connector as rockfangd suggested and see if the ignition is reactivated as before. If so, get ready for the long battle CUZ this is gonna be ugly...

I'm a little curious at this point, why the level ride is shorted to battery voltage. Pull the level ride fuse and see if the symptoms change.


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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I was almost asleep when it hit me. Has to be a relay :excl:

Pull up the under hood relay center and check for corrosion.

Change the ign 3 RELAY with another relay of the same part number from your donor vehicle. If that's not successful swap the ign1 relay.

I'm thinking IGN 3 relay cuz it makes the ABS & TC and the blower motor mad when you disconnect it.

Let me know so I can go to sleep now..... 0o0 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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