babylon_nl

2002 Deville Headgasket leak - Now what?

126 posts in this topic

Oh dear... I'm told we have a serious problem...

 

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What do you guys think...?

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I wouldn't call that a serious problem. I thank the heads need to be disassembled, cleaned and the valves lapped to seat the valves to the seats.

Why does your mechanic think it's serious?, that looks like build up or is that damage?  How do the seats look?  You can replace valves


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

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Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Are the valves bent?

If they're bent they need to be replaced, If you're talking about the deposits on them, that's normal, clean the heads as @BodybyFisher suggested above.

 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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By the way, keep all lifters and valves organized know where they go and put them back the same.   Same with the intake and exhaust cams


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I like what you guys are saying, I really do, cuz it would safe me an aditional 1000,- in repairs if it be fine :)

I will try and translate what he told me but please keep in mind that I seriously dont have any knowledge on the matter haha.. plus I am pretty sure i wont be using the correct terminology :) I attached a picture with the dutch names for the 'things' he mentions, please feel free to read the correct english translation (omg! haha)

The 'klepsluitvlak' (the surface all the way at the bottom, the closed off area that is created when the valve is closed) had become thin and the 'klepzitting' (the part that rests the valve when closed) is worn out. they are both very thin. It is a situation that is called 'the collapse of the valve' (google gave me this translation, i seriously dont know if it makes any sense to you guys ;) )

What I understand is that what he thinks need be done is the 'klepzittingen' (is valve-seat the proper word for this 'thing'?) need to be replaced by a process that involves liquid nitrogen to shrink the 'seat' and than expand as they are inserted and come back to regular temperature... and that times 32.

And than the exhaust and intake valves are seriously different in thickness and should be replaced..But than i'm thinking, maybe it's supposed to be that way? It's not like we have an example of how it should be.. 

 

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@OldCadTech we didnt take them out yet, but he didnt mention them beeing bent.. so i take it they're not...

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If I could get you a new set of heads would you be interested?

Only if your heads need major work mind you.  A new set of heads may alleviate you needing to have expensive complex work done such as seats and guides. 


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Ok.. i contacted the source here is what he said

$250 per bare head (no valves or springs, but seats and guides installed) US dollars, each, or $400 USD per head, fully assembled with cams. These are new, GM overstock, never installed.  Plus shipping.

The fully assembled heads with cams is a deal if you ask me!

 


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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@BodybyFisher my technician is enthousiastic about your reply, the 400 includes valves springs etc? If so could you estimate the shipping to the netherlands? 

We'll bring the heads to a company that is supposed to be able to fix them and see what they come up with.. but i'm happy to see options here, thanks!!

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2 hours ago, babylon_nl said:

@BodybyFisher my technician is enthousiastic about your reply, the 400 includes valves springs etc? If so could you estimate the shipping to the netherlands? 

We'll bring the heads to a company that is supposed to be able to fix them and see what they come up with.. but i'm happy to see options here, thanks!!

Yes, it is $400 fully assembled with springs, valves and cams, but to be clear that is for each head. These are NEW heads.  

You will need to contact Jake at www.northstarperformance.com  he will quote shipping, he asked me to direct you to his site.

I will link Jake to this thread, so he sees the history and your status.  I had a text chat with him so he is aware.

You will need to inform him of whether your engine is a VIN 9 or VIN Y.

I hope this works out for the best for you, Mike

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Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Posted (edited)

Nothing like a new set of heads for an engine overhaul, and yes, that is a VERY good deal that @BodybyFisher arranged,

BUT - I looked at those pics again and again. I still don't see anything wrong with those valves, Those intake seats look almost perfect from what I see, BUT I cant see the guides either.

The Intake valve stem to guide clearance is 0.11mm ( Klepsteel to Klepsteelgeleider )

The Exhaust valve stem to guide clearance is 0.12mm ( Klepsteel to Klepsteelgeleider )

Measured at the top of the valve. The last 10mm at the bottom of the guide can be beyond limits and not affect normal valve operation.

 

7 hours ago, babylon_nl said:

And than the exhaust and intake valves are seriously different in thickness and should be replaced..But than i'm thinking, maybe it's supposed to be that way? It's not like we have an example of how it should be.. 

Yes, you are correct, the intake and exhaust valves are different sizes and thicknesses. The valve seat contact area (Klepzitting ) in the head is - 0.5mm minimum anything over that is good.

Intake valve seat width is 0.450-0.850mm - measured at the valve face

Exhaust valve seat width is 0.700-1.100mm - measured at the valve face

If they are not within specs - you can hand lap the valves in being careful not to groove them.

Look at the valve seat in the head, and the valve itself, if any of them have excessive burnt areas or obvious deformation buy the new heads. 

 

Edited by OldCadTech
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THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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@BodybyFisher That's brilliant Mike, yes, I got the per-head detail haha, but i'm still smiling as an overhaul (provided it's necessary) will most likely be the same to more expensive. Jake and I have been mailing about the studs and some additional parts he can supply, but it seems he's quite a busy man, but no rush there :) My VIN is 1G6KF5790, I'll email Jake this as well!

So now we have to measure an decide what road to go.. Superlikes to your priceless measures @OldCadTech I seriously like concrete numbers thát's something I understand haha. One question tho, just to be sure, you say 'HAND LAP' the valves, this is the grinding you're talking about right? My techy explained something about grinding-in new valves, am I correct in assuming it's the same process you are talking about?

Exciting times gentlepeople, thanks a lot again for your effort and time, measuring times ahead!!

 

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Yes it is, basically grinding, only with a compound not with a stone.

Do not do ANYTHING to new valves.


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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9 hours ago, babylon_nl said:

@BodybyFisher That's brilliant Mike, yes, I got the per-head detail haha, but i'm still smiling as an overhaul (provided it's necessary) will most likely be the same to more expensive. Jake and I have been mailing about the studs and some additional parts he can supply, but it seems he's quite a busy man, but no rush there :) My VIN is 1G6KF5790, I'll email Jake this as well!

So now we have to measure an decide what road to go.. Superlikes to your priceless measures @OldCadTech I seriously like concrete numbers thát's something I understand haha. One question tho, just to be sure, you say 'HAND LAP' the valves, this is the grinding you're talking about right? My techy explained something about grinding-in new valves, am I correct in assuming it's the same process you are talking about?

Exciting times gentlepeople, thanks a lot again for your effort and time, measuring times ahead!!

 

Glad to help and hope it works out


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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You don't have to keep the valve lash adjusters or lifters in the same place. Whats the problem? Dirty? not sealing? Did the car idle smooth before you took it apart? If you want to make more work for yourself; take the cams out, rockers, lifters and get the special tool or modify a socket to remove the keepers to remove the valve. The way I still do and was taught is to get some 7/32 vacuum line and valve grinding compound. Put some compound on the backside of the valve sealing area and attach the vacuum line to a 1/4 drill bit and use a drill to lap the valves in. 

To test the sealing of the valves when your done just flip the head over with the combustion chambers on top and the head level. Install a spark plug on top and fill the cc chamber with a thin liquid . i.e. brake cleaner and see if it leaks out. Do the with all the valvetrain removed but the valve installed.

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12 minutes ago, barczy01 said:

You don't have to keep the valve lash adjusters or lifters in the same place.

Good advice thanks, my head was in the 93 to 99


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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26 minutes ago, barczy01 said:

You don't have to keep the valve lash adjusters or lifters in the same place. Whats the problem? Dirty? not sealing? Did the car idle smooth before you took it apart? If you want to make more work for yourself; take the cams out, rockers, lifters and get the special tool or modify a socket to remove the keepers to remove the valve. The way I still do and was taught is to get some 7/32 vacuum line and valve grinding compound. Put some compound on the backside of the valve sealing area and attach the vacuum line to a 1/4 drill bit and use a drill to lap the valves in. 

To test the sealing of the valves when your done just flip the head over with the combustion chambers on top and the head level. Install a spark plug on top and fill the cc chamber with a thin liquid . i.e. brake cleaner and see if it leaks out. Do the with all the valvetrain removed but the valve installed.

@barczy01 whoah... haha valve lash adjusters.. rockers, lifters, keepers.. right... haha.. :wub: i'll copy that 1:1 to my techfriend :)

About idling, that I know. What happened, i think i mentioned it in my very first posting (wow, that seems long ago haha) that at a cold start it would be quite shakey for a few seconds, but just a few, maybe 2, 4 at max.After that there was absolutely no trouble at all, as far as I can tell. One other thing i keep thinking about is the fact that it always felt the car didnt make up for 300hp it should have. A friend's citroen with a 320hp turbo diesel citroen was a totaly different experience, It's not (at all) that it felt like it had trouble keeping up, but I always found the 'Deluxury Touring Sedan' very apropriate as a name, because every drive felt like i was touring, I didnt have to worry about not pushing the gas too hard..  I always took it that belonged to the way the car was, but i'm not sure if it's an indicator of engine trouble, in fact, i kinda liked it :) But frankly i never had the idea the engine would not run smooth, except for the few seconds after a cold start.

the testing procedure sounds very promising, as mentioned, the thickness (or rather thinness) of the valves was the thing that alarmed my techfriend. Hopefully the measures given by Oldcadtech your test procedure make a more scientific analysis than 'it feels rather thing, we have a problem' :)

Thanks guys!!!!

 

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Now my brain-wheels are spinning, probably in overdrive, but if the heads cost me 800,- how crazy would I be to replace the whole block? Pretty sure shipment will be substantially more, but with gaskets and studs and all, the parts bill runs into the 1500,- and when I eyeball ebay (tho i dont want to buy there) i'm seriously thinking what if i just replace the whole block.. 

what's your thoughts on that, no need to quote, just contemplating, would there be serious advantages to a new block? In my nightmares the previously mentioned rocking of the cilinders become an issue once the heads have been replaced by new ones..

@OldCadTech would you happen to have soms measures on the cilinder part of the block as well? I like measures and I can't wait for the results of that comin' in.. 

I need a vacation, don't i? :P 

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I can't help with that idea. I think both Jake and barczy01 commented that rock was normal.  

Are you going to pull replace the rod and main bearings?  I suppose a check of the required piston to cylinder wall clearance would be smart.

A job like this mushrooms, replacing the rings, oil manifold, case half seals?

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How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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In my opinion, you are better off rebuilding the one you have, so keep doing what you're doing. At least that way you know what's been done and if you trust the person working on the engine then you know or trust it was done correctly. Case halves IMO would be a must do.

You may not need a vacation but maybe a therapy session would help :grouphug:

I can get some cylinder specs together tonight :)

 

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THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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7 minutes ago, BodybyFisher said:

I can't help with that idea. I think both Jake and barczy01 commented that rock was normal.  

Are you going to pull replace the rod and main bearings?  I suppose a check of the required piston to cylinder wall clearance would be smart.

A job like this mushrooms, replacing the rings, oil manifold, case half seals?

I read your tekst 5 times @BodybyFisher but i seriously have no clue what it means you're asking :wipetears My thoughts now are quite simple: measure the tollerances and if it's anywhere a questionmark and if someone threatens me that works need be done on them, i'll have the new heads, plain and simple. We have not discussed the rest of the block, that's why my thoughts went there... not held back by any knowledge on engine at all, i just posted my question, maybe i shouldnt have, i'm very happy with the support you guys are giving me and I dont want to overstay my welcome.. I'll run it past my techfriend i'm pretty sure he can make sense of it, as far as I can tell is we have 'smartshops' here that sell magic mushrooms and they make you forget about any car problem you might have.. in fact, they make you forget about your car at all, but i think they not the same thing :P

 

@OldCadTech thanks, that is a very reasuring answer, I needed that haha, yes, i trust the guy who's working on it, but I also know he's never worked on an engine like this and as he is a friend as well, i think it would be horrible if the whole thing is back together again and we find after 2 months that we kinda forgot some thingemajigger and we can start from scratch, hence my thought: new heads means 100% ok on the heads, new block means 100% ok on the block, it's clear now it's gonna cost, if for say 1500,- more i have a car that i like a lot and can drive without a problem for 10 years, it's roughly 15 bucks per month extra, who's complaining?

But, cool, thanks both of you again, we'll keep going as we go, i'm pretty sure on the head issue, as it was said earlier, it sounds like deal and if the work on them is more than cleaning them, we should go for the new heads. 

if we can do some definate measuring on the rest of the block so we'll know we're good there it'd be great, there's no mayor parts that could or should be replaced or checked, as the heads did their time, the rest of the block obviously  did too.. i guess i just hate surprises :P

@OldCadTech 'Case halves would be a must do' - what are case halves and what must be done?

It would make me feel very happy if you have some specs on the lower block and I agree with you, some therapy would be in order.. or a crash course in car mechanics, that might clear my head too haha well, by the time it's all done, i'm half way a tech my self by word at least haha.. 

Offcourse I talk to people about this project and the most common reaction is: why dont you just buy a new or good second hand car, why put so much time, money and energy in a yank-tank?

I'll just frown and look at their car, usually something like this, and I go like sure, a 1 litre 3 cilinder car has advantages all over the place, but i don't know... let's just say it's a feeling one has for a car..some are a 'yes' and some are a 'no'.. Mine's a 'yes' :) 

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49 minutes ago, BodybyFisher said:

I can't help with that idea. I think both Jake and barczy01 commented that rock was normal.  

Are you going to pull replace the rod and main bearings?  I suppose a check of the required piston to cylinder wall clearance would be smart.

A job like this mushrooms, replacing the rings, oil manifold, case half seals?

You said this "In my nightmares the previously mentioned rocking of the cilinders become an issue".  

I said I think Jake and barczy01 commented that the piston rocking was OK.  

But it would not hurt to check clearances while you have the engine apart.

I have no comment on whether to work on your block or get a new block.  I think it is a big difference in cost.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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9 minutes ago, BodybyFisher said:

You said this "In my nightmares the previously mentioned rocking of the cilinders become an issue".  

I said I think Jake and barczy01 commented that the piston rocking was OK.  

But it would not hurt to check clearances while you have the engine apart.

I have no comment on whether to work on your block or get a new block.  I think it is a big difference in cost.

jah, true that,but but but... no, i'm overthinking things, sorry about that, agreed, with the specs to be double sure, it should be good... and apart from the cilinders, there's nothing to have nightmares about? It's probably a huge difference in price (i guess? double? x2.5, x3?) but what if... NO RON.. QUIT IT.. leave it to those who know.. Oh yes, agreed, yes, will do...

Did anybody say 'therapy'?

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@babylon_nl

I am sorry about my post above that was difficult to understand, I was sitting in the car on my smartphone, it was not clear.

Are you replacing all engine seals and the oil manifold?

Have you considered replacing the rings?

Pardon me if you itemized the replacement parts already, but if you did not, can you post a list of parts you have ordered or plan to replace.

I understand your statement about vacation/therapy, this is stressful, we will try to help alleviate some of that stress.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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haha I really feel stupid, it's great you take this effort of replying (safely i hope!) from your car.. Yes, we want all available seals and stuff we can get to replace, that's money wise peanuts. Jake made a list of items he can supply, the rest I will be ordering from rockauto, just not sure about the rack, have to still shop around for that. But i havent ordered yet, I'm awaiting Jake's offer for the total package he can supply, but this is the initial list:

From Jake:

Cylinder Head Stud Kit for Northstar V8 - full kit 
Oil Pan Gasket
Crankshaft Seal - front set 
Oil Filter 
Timing Chain Guide -  (original GM part, identical to Cloyes 95310)

This will be most of the rest of our most wanted list (rockauto)

Tensioner Pulley - source from Rockauto


Starter Motor -- Source from RockAuto


Fuel Filter - Source from RockAuto


Cylinder Head Bolt - Not needed if you purchase our head stud kit


Air Filter - Source from RockAuto


Hydraulic lines - source from Rockauto


Belts - Source from Rockauto

we didnt order anything yet, as i'm still awaiting Jake, but i'm making it difficult for him too, cuz i asked for the rack as well..

 

I'm seriously considering therapie haha, but i dont really have time as I need mail around for the car :paint2: hahaha

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