babylon_nl

2002 Deville Headgasket leak - Now what?

126 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, BodybyFisher said:

We have had good experience with timeserts as KHE mentioned, but it is VERY important that the block material be good.  By that I mean, when you drill, you need to see FILINGS not DUST or sandy material, if you do you need to go to a big-sert.  If you put a timesert into a hole that had dusty material it will pull quickly as the material has been damaged from heat and or electrolysis.   You MUST replace the head bolts as they are torque to yield fasteners, and they stretch when torqued.

 

The Northstar head bolts are not torque to yield bolts.  They have a microencapsulated threadlocker that acts as an anti-seize and locks them into place.  There is no practical way of applying it in the field and there is not a substitute, so the procedure is to replace the head bolts.

26 minutes ago, babylon_nl said:

@BodybyFisher: '  I tend to be sensitive :hatsoff:or um, passionate, :P ' haha.. yes.. passion is good,, too little people have a real passion these days I guess.. that's what I like about forums like this (I am on some forums for my work as well, on satellite equipment and pc stuff) as passion brings a lot of valuable knowledge that non-passionate people just.. miss I suppose.. 

@KHE I think he's convinced now :) thanks! It makes sense, we're going to check the block  this weekend and i'll try and get some pictures of the progress, From what I understand is that he decided to still take the engine out because of - some reason I didnt understand- 

I'm gonna update soon! Thanks again guys!

Glad to help.  If you go to Timesert's website and look up the manufacturer's specific kits, in the Bigsert kit description, it actually says "for use when a Heilicoil pulls out" or something to that effect.

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Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Great thanks!! This weekend i'll try and take the old Nikon out for a spin, Pretty sure there will be some nice shots to be taken.. non-daily ones I suppose :) I'll check back soon!

 

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26 minutes ago, KHE said:

The Northstar head bolts are not torque to yield bolts.  They have a microencapsulated threadlocker that acts as an anti-seize and locks them into place.  There is no practical way of applying it in the field and there is not a substitute, so the procedure is to replace the head bolts.

Glad to help.  If you go to Timesert's website and look up the manufacturer's specific kits, in the Bigsert kit description, it actually says "for use when a Heilicoil pulls out" or something to that effect.

Hmm, I was under the impression that the bolts were torqued into the elastic zone and that was considered "torque to yield", wrong terminology?    @KHE


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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5 hours ago, BodybyFisher said:

Hmm, I was under the impression that the bolts were torqued into the elastic zone and that was considered "torque to yield", wrong terminology?    @KHE

Probably wrong terminology - the head bolts do not get into the plastic/elastic region.  If there was a practical method to clean and re-apply the micro-encapsulated threadlocker, the head bolts could be re-used over and over.

The rod bolts are torque to yield bolts - there is no threadlocker on them and the shop manual states they are not to be re-used. 


Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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16 hours ago, KHE said:

Probably wrong terminology - the head bolts do not get into the plastic/elastic region.  If there was a practical method to clean and re-apply the micro-encapsulated threadlocker, the head bolts could be re-used over and over.

The rod bolts are torque to yield bolts - there is no threadlocker on them and the shop manual states they are not to be re-used. 

I had a wrong impression of the head bolts for a long time.  I thought they were tightened into the plastic / elastic zone!!

I have been thinking about this all day  and its nagging me.  Kevin, are you 100% sure, that when the bolts aee properly torqued based on the torque-angle method in the FSM that the bolts don't end up in the elastic zone?  

If that is not true it totally destroys my thinking and all of the studying and research I have done.  I was under the impression that I bolt HAD to be torqed to the sweet spot in the elastic zone to maintain clamping force.  


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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small update, guess we found the spot were it all went wrong :)

btw, i'm hoping to make some pictures myself soon, but 0,2mb for uploading to the forum is not all that much, where would you put these pictures with a link to the forum?

head 1.jpg

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@babylon_nl by the way, what is your name?

I use photobucket.

Make an account 

Upload photos there

Link it as a PHOTO and paste the code here at your desired insertion point 

You can link as many photos as you want


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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20 hours ago, BodybyFisher said:

I have been thinking about this all day  and its nagging me.  Kevin, are you 100% sure, that when the bolts aee properly torqued based on the torque-angle method in the FSM that the bolts don't end up in the elastic zone?  

 

Yes - I had an extensive phone conversation with the guru when I repaired my Seville STS engine several years ago.  The head bolts are not torque to yield.  They provide constant clamping force due to the low static torque and the angular specification which removes friction from the equation as compared to just a standard torque value.

Torque to yield bolts do get into the plastic region - that is the design of the rod cap bolts.


Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Posted (edited)

Update: it seems this... thing? is slightly broken.. It translates as 'camshaft guide', but when i google it, i dont see anything that slightly resembles it.. does anybody know what it's really called? :)

f098bf4b-c533-484d-8ad3-eff386f26779.jpg

 

By the way, sorry to be so rude, I go by the name of Ron :) Pleased to meet you all!

Edited by babylon_nl

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So... due to the heat here work has been extremely slow, but we're still on track :)

We have cleaned the threads and holes of the block and as adviced by Barczy01, we examined the threads carefully. We even tested them and found that @ 20lbs of torque the old bolts are starting to feel terribly eerie, so we had to make a decision on what to use: studs, or inserts. Frankly we've decided to use @NorthstarPerformance studs, but after sending a message on the website and a PM on here, there is no reply on our question on transport price to europe... We're patient, but a month should be good timeframe, does any body know if they are still in bussiness or do they have summer closure? 

Their kit will probably end up around 800,- incl.shipment, it'd be nice if we'd know that money dont end up in the greasepit, plus it'd be awesome if the car would run by the time winter sets in :)

Anybody heard of them at all?

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Ill page Jake and get him to come here.  This should not happen


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Thanks @BodybyFisher, jake seems to have missed my msgs, no worries, he's mailed me just now! Great!

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I have searched my email inbox and found one contact message from June 13th. I apologize that message was overlooked or missed. I am rarely on the forums here, and as a result I never received the private message here.

I have replied to your email address- I will happily assist in providing any parts that you need for that Northstar build with the best shipping possible to the Netherlands :) Thank you.

And thanks Mike for bringing this to my attention.

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Jake has messages since 6/13.  If this HAS been a month, Jake needs to know how you tried to contact him so he can avoid this in the future.  Please detail your contact method and dates


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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:) Thanks guys, all good now!

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Ok good!

Wait.....you PMd Jake here?


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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2 minutes ago, BodybyFisher said:

Wait.....you PMd Jake here?

Yes and tried thru the website, but now we're emailing...

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I pm'ed june 1 and I guess a few days later thru the website's contact form, if that's of any help? Jake mailed me he missed it, i think it did come thru :)

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Unfortunately PMing him here delayed the process.  Well at least you got together now.  Look forward to seeing your results


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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7 hours ago, babylon_nl said:

Thanks :)

I've uploaded some pics of the work on http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/cadillac_northstar/library/?sort=3&page=1 

unfortunately didnt have the opertunity yet to make 'nice' pictures but it gives idea of what's going on :)

Good photos, I like how you are keeping related parts together.  

Did you drop the engine and trans from the bottom?

What is the big steel frame with the wheels being used for?, lifting?


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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