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Is this a common problem on 94 Caddys? Burn Repair


01Eldorado

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Hello all,

 

Sorry to bring back an old topic. 

I recently purchased a 2001 Eldorado that had burn damage. Small fire melted up the firewall amazingly did not burn any wires very close but all systems are working fine. As I attempted to clean the burn I too had crumbling heater box housing. I started chipping away at the plastic and noticed that some fell directly on the exhaust header. 

I cant seem to find the source of the original fire. Would some pieces of crumbling plastic that may have fallen onto the exhaust have been the cause of the fire? 

slight char on the o2 sensor, and melted some of the firewall but did not burn through insulation, one slightly melted electrical box with 2 wires coming out of it on the firewall but it looks to be okay wires are good and only melted around the edges. When inside the car it stinks to hell.

Huge hole in the top of the box at the firewall. I plan to tape it up with some hi temp aluminum tape and chip the plastic off the exhaust, I hope that cures the smell.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Lots of good info here.

 

Have a great day!

Robert

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:welcomesmiley:  I moved this to a new topic.  Sorry to hear the issue.  After the burn damage was the Eldorado repaired by a third party?  Would you be looking for what parts are newer?

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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No problem. 

The car was not repaired after burn. I bought it at auction through copart. I could tell by the pictures that there was little damage. 

 

Copart auction link

Auction read runs and drives, burn damage. So I knew that nobody would be bidding on it because of that I got it at a steal for $125 total after fees was $250 out the door. 

It runs great everything works fine. Only problem is the computer says the A/c refrigerant is low and is in auto shut off mode.

Thanks for reading,

 

Robert

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Did you determine what caused the fire?   

We have had a couple of fires due to fuel rails cracking and spraying fuel, a member Warren lost his car due to a fuel rail fire.  It does not sound like you had a fuel rail fire or you would not be speaking about the car :blink:, it burns to the ground.

Bad oil leaks from leaky case half can combust on the hot exhaust manifold or exhaust pipes.  

The hvac box or barrier is a known problem, they become brittle over time and crack and fall apart.  They cost $125 to $150 and they are available, but installation is tough as the carriage needs to be dropped or tilted heavily

Take a photo of the box at the firewall and post it some cadillacs have a power unit for a heated windshield.  

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

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try putting a bunch of charcoal briquettes inside the car (i'd put them on paper or something) and under the hood near the area of fire. I used them at a house that had serious smoke and was very satisfied. You might also try wiping anything handy with murpy's oil soap. I would try to stuff some up under the dash too. They seem to absorb the smoke smell.

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Coffee, (fresh ground) neutralizes odors too. @airmike had some great ideas too, I have never tried his suggestions but sounds good :shaka:

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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33 minutes ago, OldCadTech said:

Coffee, (fresh ground) neutralizes odors too. @airmike had some great ideas too, I have never tried his suggestions but sounds good :shaka:

Hmmm, they smuggle all sorts of illicit items in coffee @OldCadTech what did you say you did for a living?  :blink: :lol:

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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does the blower motor work? On rare occasions I have seen the plugs and heater blower burn up. That is on the box on the firewall. Rare to do anymore than melt though

GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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I just looked, it appears that the heated windshield was discontinued by 01.  So its not a power unit.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Don't know if your car had this option, but around 2006 (I know, much later) a recall was issued for the heated windshield wiper fluid heating tank. This recall was due to a smaller than needed printed circuit conductor inside the box, causing melting and possible fire. Recall fix was to cut the wires!

My best guess though would be the blower motor or plug as Rockfangd suggested. 

Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed.

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Hey guys thanks for the replies.

 

Quote
On 9/17/2016 at 9:57 AM, BodybyFisher said:

Did you determine what caused the fire?   

We have had a couple of fires due to fuel rails cracking and spraying fuel, a member Warren lost his car due to a fuel rail fire.  It does not sound like you had a fuel rail fire or you would not be speaking about the car :blink:, it burns to the ground.

Bad oil leaks from leaky case half can combust on the hot exhaust manifold or exhaust pipes.  

The hvac box or barrier is a known problem, they become brittle over time and crack and fall apart.  They cost $125 to $150 and they are available, but installation is tough as the carriage needs to be dropped or tilted heavily

Take a photo of the box at the firewall and post it some cadillacs have a power unit for a heated windshield.  

 

I did not determine what caused the fire. I do not think it was a fuel rail. I think that the most simple explanation is the most probable that a portion of the barrier cracked and fell directly on top of the exhaust and melted then eventually caught fire. I would probably guess this may have developed over several trips in this car and the owner most likely smelled this happening before the fire actually flared up and officially caught fire. There was quite a bit of fire retardant all over the surrounding area. Perhaps the owner had a fire extinguisher on hand or maybe a swift acting fellow driver in the right place and time saved the car from burning to the ground. Either way I can imagine a lot of smoke perhaps several episodes of it before it actually engulfed itself as the plastic could have cooled and reheated repeatedly each time it was driven. I can imagine the owner of this caddy was happy to be rid of the smell and headache lol.

 

Here some pics I took of what I have so far.

 

I'm definitely not interested in replacing the box/barrier. I plan to patch that hole on the top with a "beer can" spot welded, perhaps a guiness can or maybe one of those thicker asian coconut drink cans will do the trick. spray glue the insulation back in place on the firewall and add to the heat shield to protect/prevent any further plastic from falling onto the exhaust. And I feel an installed fire extinguisher that is handy will be a must for any revived burn car.

 

The Car

 Hood

The Motor

Looking down  Looking down 2  Looking down 3   

Component<-- The component that suffered some burn but seems to work.

Blower box without plastic barrier

Better view from top

Sharper focus view

Thanks for your help guys. This is my first caddy and it sure is a beast! 

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The blower does work but blows straight into the engine compartment out that hole on the top.

 

On 9/17/2016 at 0:40 PM, rockfangd said:

does the blower motor work? On rare occasions I have seen the plugs and heater blower burn up. That is on the box on the firewall. Rare to do anymore than melt though

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Beautiful looking car, good photos.  That looks like the HVAC blower control module/resistor.

4P1424__ra_p_zps2kyn9vky.jpg

Verify that it burned up.

You need to find a cover for that rectangular hole, in the scrap yard or fabricate one out of aluminum and seal it off with metallic tape.  The smell from under the hood comes in directly through that hole. The hvac / evaporator barrier will need replacing, see #12 in this illustration, I think this part number fits the 01 Eldo

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/cadillac/seville/89019293/1995-year/sts-trim/4-6l-v8-gas-engine/hvac-cat/evaporator-and-heater-components-scat/?part_name=barrier

 

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Thanks. So to wrap this thread up. Only the hvac/ evap barrier part #12 needs to be replaced which does not require dropping the motor and can be pulled from a scrap yard or purchased as a replacement part? And although the HVAC blower control module suffered some damage, it seems to be functioning but would be prudent to replace, also can be found at the scrap yard. Let me know if i am missing something. 

As far as the theory about how and where the fire started. Everything is speculation.  As someone who has never had experience with this car/motor before the location of the fire and the components involved seem to be all present and accounted for and from the pictures all that is needed is to cover the hole to alleviate the smell and replace the barrier and insulation to regain full firewall protection? 

I have a list of codes that I pulled off the computer today. I will place it in the following reply that way it can be moved to the proper place on the forum unless some of the codes may pertain to the fire itself.

 

 

Thanks again!

Robert

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Just now, 01Eldorado said:

 

I have a list of codes that I pulled off the computer today. I will place it in the following reply that way it can be moved to the proper place on the forum unless some of the codes may pertain to the fire itself.

 

 

Thanks again!

Robert

Pulled from the 2001 Cadillac Eldorado DTC post burn damage- 

PCM P0171 History

         P0174 H

         P0300 CURRENT

NO IPC

         B1340 H

         B1347 C

NO SDM

NO PZM

NO IRC

RF2 40064 H

NO CCP

MSM B2102 H

          B2119 H

          B2120 H

           B0856 H

           B 1982 H

           B 1983 H

           B 1656 H

NO MMM

 

Please advise on what needs to be addressed I would appreciate it.

Also the computer does chime with Low A/C refrigerant level. 

Thanks guys!

 

Robert

 

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I would not get either part in a scrap yard, and I am a big scrap yard picker.

The evaporator barrier I provided a part number for, its 125, they get brittle anything you find in the yard will be on its last legs.  

If that hvac module burned, I would by a new one and not chance it.  Get it at rockauto its about 80, I have a 5% discount for them

I believe replacing the barrier is very difficult.  

The part I suggested finding in the scrap yard is that rectangular piece on top that you said air was blowing out if, that needs to be covered with the correct piece or one you fabricate and seal

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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My best opinion is do not weld on that box. I have dealt with many of the crumbled covers and I take a plate and put silicone around it and put it over the hole. I did that with my 96 and it was fine until the day it was junked.

I personally have never heard of the material causing a fire but I am not saying it is not possible.

I wish they were better. My 97 Seville is lucky as it only has one crack so far. My 96 Deville was already falling apart when I had it. it used to pull in hot air and smells from under the hood.

also why does your title ask about 94 caddys?

Car looks nice. If all is wrong other than the box and hole in the top you got it for a steal.

Those coils were pretty common. Dont be surprised if you have to replace them both. 1 is silver, the other is black. But they are completely interchangeable.

Happy to not see a P0741 in your list of codes

GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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P0171 H

P0174 H

P0300 C

You have lean codes in history. P0171 and P0174 means its affecting both banks. But they are history codes, so maybe its been fixed.  The 01, has a plenum between the throttle body and the intake, these plenum can get a hole on the bottom and suck air.

Given you had a fire a hose could have been pulled off that affects both banks.  Check for cracks in vacuum hoses attached to the intake, check the hose that goes to the brake booster and check the hose attached to the PCV, and check the PCV for proper operation, is it loose when you shake it.   

The P0300 is a random misfire that is current.   That car has coil pack cartridges that can be quirky and throw a random misfire when malfunctioning.

@Logan is familiar with the coil pack cartridges and whether the P0300 is a failure mode.  If I recall he used to keep a known good cart in his trunk.

At some point, erase the codes at PCM?, and see if the lean codes come back.  See the link at the bottom of this post for how to read DTC codes, there should be a paragraph on erasing or clearing codes or delete them with a code reader, as a last resort, disconnect the negative battery cable, but only as a last resort.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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If you need parts here is a 5% discount from rockauto!  I just got it today.

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Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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On 9/19/2016 at 9:28 PM, BodybyFisher said:

P0171 H

P0174 H

P0300 C

You have lean codes in history. P0171 and P0174 means its affecting both banks. But they are history codes, so maybe its been fixed.  The 01, has a plenum between the throttle body and the intake, these plenum can get a hole on the bottom and suck air.

Given you had a fire a hose could have been pulled off that affects both banks.  Check for cracks in vacuum hoses attached to the intake, check the hose that goes to the brake booster and check the hose attached to the PCV, and check the PCV for proper operation, is it loose when you shake it.   

The P0300 is a random misfire that is current.   That car has coil pack cartridges that can be quirky and throw a random misfire when malfunctioning.

@Logan is familiar with the coil pack cartridges and whether the P0300 is a failure mode.  If I recall he used to keep a known good cart in his trunk.

At some point, erase the codes at PCM?, and see if the lean codes come back.  See the link at the bottom of this post for how to read DTC codes, there should be a paragraph on erasing or clearing codes or delete them with a code reader, as a last resort, disconnect the negative battery cable, but only as a last resort.

Okay so I did erase the P codes through the onboard diagnostic- service engine light comes back right away. Have not gotten a chance to search for hoses or leaks yet, I did however attempt to recharge the AC system with a bottle of 134a from Home Depot, and erasing the DTC code from the onboard diagnostic would throw the low ac refrigerant code right away so I already disconnected the battery several times to get the compressor clutch to engage. I managed to squeeze in a bottle of refrigerant and it is holding but not cold, and i did find a small leak in the evaporator tube line on the core side going from the evaporator core to the evaporator tube.

So regarding the coil packs Rock Auto has OEM replacement parts front and rear for 223 - 238 dollars each side respectively. For aftermarket 124-127 dollars. And Pick N pull has got them for $11.99. 

Since I am a cheap bastard Im heading to Pick N pull tomorrow morning to see about grabbing a front and rear coil pack from any one of these vehicles:

 

CADILLAC DEVILLE 2000-2003
CADILLAC ELDORADO 2000-2002
CADILLAC SEVILLE 2000-2003
OLDSMOBILE AURORA 2001-2003

 

Will Also be looking to score the parts to patch the hole in the blower housing.

About the leaky A/C Evap core tube. It seems to be coming from below where the tube comes out of the firewall, how difficult is this to repair or replace? Any suggestions?

Also, please let me know if im on the right track to getting the Service engine light off and the DTC codes fixed, and anything that I should be doing as well while at the scrap yard.

Thanks guys!

Cheers!

Robert

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Quote

Thanks @Logan

PS, there is another P300 2001 coil thread I wanted you to look at, I used the @ sign here to alert you, if you don't see it Ill tag you again, thx

 

@Logan Whats your take on the coil packs? Cheap bastard Pick N pull parts have any chance of clearing the P300 DTC?

Extras in the trunk? I cant afford any $230 extras in the trunk so known working $11.99 coil packs would really make my cheap bastard self smile.

 

Thanks!

Robert

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On 9/19/2016 at 9:28 PM, BodybyFisher said:

P0171 H

P0174 H

P0300 C

You have lean codes in history. P0171 and P0174 means its affecting both banks. But they are history codes, so maybe its been fixed.  The 01, has a plenum between the throttle body and the intake, these plenum can get a hole on the bottom and suck air.

Given you had a fire a hose could have been pulled off that affects both banks.  Check for cracks in vacuum hoses attached to the intake, check the hose that goes to the brake booster and check the hose attached to the PCV, and check the PCV for proper operation, is it loose when you shake it.   

 

Okay so after watching some youtube videos on the P300 misfire and vacuum leaks I understand what i am looking for as far as the leaks in the plenum between the intake and throttle body, the pcv boot that cracks on the elbow, and the intake gaskets that could be the source of the leaks causing misfire.  

So should I remove the intake replace the boot and elbow replace gaskets and reinstall while checking all vacuum hoses for any leaks. Should a leak be apparent then replacing the coils would be unnecessary? 

What would be the best course of action right now? 

 

Thanks again!

Robert!

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 I said above:

You have lean codes in history. P0171 and P0174 means its affecting both banks. But they are history codes, so maybe its been fixed.  The 01, has a plenum between the throttle body and the intake, these plenum can get a hole on the bottom and suck air.

Given you had a fire a hose could have been pulled off that affects both banks.  Check for cracks in vacuum hoses attached to the intake, check the hose that goes to the brake booster and check the hose attached to the PCV, and check the PCV for proper operation, is it loose when you shake it.   

Do not just parts replace and start tearing the car apart without doing diagnostics and confirming a problem.

You HAD HISTORY codes 171 and 174 indicating lean codes for both banks.  Did they come back after you erased the P codes?  This is important 

I will add that if you spray a fluid around the bottom of the plenum while the engine idles if you have a vacuum leak the engine will change rpm, be careful and have an extinguisher nearby just in case, use carb cleaner.  BUT ONLY IF YOU HAVE CURRENT 171 AND 174 CODES!!

Lean codes can be caused by unmetered air from a vacuum leak OR from fuel starvation from a bad fuel pump, clogged filter.

If you can find the coil cassettes in a scrap yard go for it.

Please dont knee jerk or parts replace its not the right thing to do it is important to be methodical about this.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Maybe the fire was started by someone spraying around searching for the 171/174.

The rubber coupler is under the intake mounted between the throttle body and the intake. About a $20 part at Cadillac. The intake has to come off to replace. They can look great from the top side....but they rot out on the bottom where intake juices collect in the bellows.

I always kept a used, tested coil bank in the trunk.

On a 2001....you only get p0300....you need a scan tool that can display misfires to figure out which cylinder is missing. No such thing as a p0301-0308 code on a 2001.

 

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