KHE Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 My wiife said the battery went dead on the '97 STS yesterday after she ran a few errands. The car started fine but then would not start later. There was not a BATTERY NO CHARGE, BATTERY VOLTAGE LOW message on the DIC or even a battery light on the dash. After jumping the car and getting it home, she put the battery charger on it - by the time I got home, it was fully charged. The battery voltage was 12.6V measured at the battery. I started the car and measured the battery voltage and it was 12.4V or slightly less so I know the alternator has no output but I would have thought there would have been a message or warning light. I need to pull the alternator and take it to the rebuilder - It does not look like a fun job to remove it. Hopefully I can get it out this evening. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 I believe the rectifier is bad in the alternator. I disconnected the battery cable from the alternator, connected a volt meter to the battery terminal on the alternator, reconnected the negative battery terminal, started the car and there was no output from the alternator. I had the alternator out in about an hour and a half. I need to go to the rebuilder and have them go through it. At almost 198,000 miles on the original alternator, I really can't complain. I do not know why there was not a message on the information center or why the battery light did not illuminate when the alternator stopped working. The battery light comes on as a bulb test when the engine is started so I know it is not burned out. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airmike Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Is yours water cooled also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Is yours water cooled also? No - it is the CS-144 alternator that is air cooled. I think the water cooled units came out in 2000 and were only used for one or two model years. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 1998 and 1999 Sevilles had liquid cooled alternators. I don't know about Devilles . I hear folks bad-mouthing liquid cooled alternators but my experience could not have been better. Factory installed part still going strong at 200,000 + miles. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 1998 and 1999 Sevilles had liquid cooled alternators. I don't know about Devilles . I hear folks bad-mouthing liquid cooled alternators but my experience could not have been better. Factory installed part still going strong at 200,000 + miles. That makes sense - '98 - '99 Sevilles had the liquid cooled alternators but the Devilles did not. I think the liquid cooled alternators were dropped after the '99 model year so the Devilles never had them. I think the bad-mouthing of the liquid cooled alternators stems from their higher cost to replace when they failed and having to drain the cooling system made it a little more difficult to replace. The coolant hoses to the alternator were discontinued so if they started to leak, either used hoses would need to be used or a CS-144 alternator would need to be retrofitted. I think the reason your alternator was still going strong after over 200,000 miles was because it was liquid cooled. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 I started the car and measured the battery voltage and it was 12.4V or slightly less so I know the alternator has no output but I would have thought there would have been a message or warning light. It's possible there was still some output, otherwise the system voltage might have been below 12.0. Last year, I encountered a similar situation with a 1996 Concours; there was no DIC warning and the alternator output was 1/3 of normal. Another interesting observation: If the connector on the regulator comes loose, there'll be a no-charge condition without any DIC notification since the 'L' terminal circuit stays high. I discovered the latter by chance while monitoring the DIC reported voltage; the positive retention clip on the regulator connector had broken, resulting in intermittent continuity (powertrain torque sensitive). I believe the 2000 DeVille also has a liquid cooled alternator. ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 I seem to recall if the connector was not plugged in, the battery no charge message would be displayed. At any rate, the retainer was intact. The battery was completely dead - I had to recharge it. Then started the car, let it run for a few minutes, turned it off, measured the battery voltage - it was 12.6V. When I started the engine, and measured the voltage at the battery, it was 12.4. I'll know the full story when I take the alternator in to the rebuilder - I'm betting it's the rectifier. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted February 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 All fixed. The stator in the alternator was fried and the rectifier was bad. No idea wht the DIC did not alert that the system was not charging. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 The alternator output was not low enough for the regulator to trigger a fault condition. In the case of the Concours, the output was 23 A at idle, resulting in a system voltage of 12.3-12.4 (net discharge). The replacement alternator put out almost 70 A under the same conditions at over 14.0 V. Given the ~30 A requirement at idle, the voltage would have been under 12.0 if the alternator had zero output. ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airmike Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 1 1/2 hours to remove, how long to replace? glad you got it fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 The alternator output was not low enough for the regulator to trigger a fault condition. In the case of the Concours, the output was 23 A at idle, resulting in a system voltage of 12.3-12.4 (net discharge). The replacement alternator put out almost 70 A under the same conditions at over 14.0 V. Given the ~30 A requirement at idle, the voltage would have been under 12.0 if the alternator had zero output. When the alternator shop put it on the tester, there was no output from the alternator. 1 1/2 hours to remove, how long to replace? glad you got it fixed It took about 2 hours to put it back in. I was on a creeper and had the car on jack stands. A hoist would have made it go much faster. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted March 2, 2015 Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 The alternator output was not low enough for the regulator to trigger a fault condition. In the case of the Concours, the output was 23 A at idle, resulting in a system voltage of 12.3-12.4 (net discharge). The replacement alternator put out almost 70 A under the same conditions at over 14.0 V. Given the ~30 A requirement at idle, the voltage would have been under 12.0 if the alternator had zero output. When the alternator shop put it on the tester, there was no output from the alternator. The load from headlamps alone would be enough to pull a fully charged battery down to 12.4 V in short order. The 23 A measurement was made using a clamp on the output lead at cold idle; the alternator was spinning at over 2000 RPM. Disconnecting the regulator connector resulted in zero output. I'm curious about the testing method and the reporting ability of the tester. Based on some observations, this appears to be an identical failure on a similar car. ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 The alternator output was not low enough for the regulator to trigger a fault condition. In the case of the Concours, the output was 23 A at idle, resulting in a system voltage of 12.3-12.4 (net discharge). The replacement alternator put out almost 70 A under the same conditions at over 14.0 V. Given the ~30 A requirement at idle, the voltage would have been under 12.0 if the alternator had zero output. When the alternator shop put it on the tester, there was no output from the alternator. The load from headlamps alone would be enough to pull a fully charged battery down to 12.4 V in short order. The 23 A measurement was made using a clamp on the output lead at cold idle; the alternator was spinning at over 2000 RPM. Disconnecting the regulator connector resulted in zero output. I'm curious about the testing method and the reporting ability of the tester. Based on some observations, this appears to be an identical failure on a similar car. I didn't take a picture of the test machine but it had a fixture to hold the alternator, a harness that plugged into the regulator on the alternator and a belt drive system to spin it. It also had a battery and a digital display that had the output voltage and current so the in-use conditions could be simulated. When he activated the tester, the screen showed 0 V and 0 A. When he opened it up, I saw the stator was cooked. He instaled a new stator, regulator, new bearings and brushes for $88.50 which I thought was a fair price for basically a new alternator. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterset Posted March 2, 2015 Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 Do you know who was the manufacturer(s) of the replacement parts? I am just curious if these rebuilders use OEM parts that they buy in bulk for a good deal or if they go with a good after market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 I don't know for sure but I'd bet it is a good quality aftermarket source. Using inferior parts would lead to comebacks which is the last thing they'd want. I have been using this shop for 10 years and have not had an issue with their work. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfangd Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Did you remove the access plate from under the car, it is part of the radiator support. When removing that I can remove and install in about 1.5 hours. Hardest part is the 2 bolts on the back side of the alternator. They are between the alternator and the manifold. I have done quite a few of these alternators and most are missing the bolts on the back side. Also make sure you route the hot cable so it doesnt rub on the cooling fan. IIRC I remove upper rad hose at radiator, right cooling fan, access plate, belt, alternator. install is reverse. I have done 9 out of 10 on ramps. 2k northstars are the same but have a different numbered alternator, not sure why GM FAN FOREVER Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Did you remove the access plate from under the car, it is part of the radiator support. When removing that I can remove and install in about 1.5 hours. Hardest part is the 2 bolts on the back side of the alternator. They are between the alternator and the manifold. I have done quite a few of these alternators and most are missing the bolts on the back side. Also make sure you route the hot cable so it doesnt rub on the cooling fan. IIRC I remove upper rad hose at radiator, right cooling fan, access plate, belt, alternator. install is reverse. I have done 9 out of 10 on ramps. 2k northstars are the same but have a different numbered alternator, not sure why Yes - I removed the access plate and removed it from the bottom. It was not a difficult job - the bolts on the back side were somewhat difficult but not impossible. Lazy mechanics are the ones who leave them out. They are there for a reason - to support the alternator properly and to allow it to take the load from the serpentine belt. Without the back bolts, I wouldn;t think the front flange of the alternator would last long before cracking. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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