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rockfangd

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When the weather is below zero I dont like to stress things too much. The rapid temperature change and stress makes me uncomfortable.

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When the weather is below zero I dont like to stress things too much. The rapid temperature change and stress makes me uncomfortable.

Nonsense - Once the engine is up to temperature, the ambient temperature has little influence.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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I agree to an extent, it has to do with the mounts, lines, suspension, etc...

May not matter that much but you can definately tell a difference in things when the temperature is very cold.

Things are stiffer, fluids are thicker, things tend to fail or not work properly in the cold conditions. Maybe it is just me but it is something I consider.

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I agree to an extent, it has to do with the mounts, lines, suspension, etc...

May not matter that much but you can definately tell a difference in things when the temperature is very cold.

Things are stiffer, fluids are thicker, things tend to fail or not work properly in the cold conditions. Maybe it is just me but it is something I consider.

These cars are validated under extreme cold (-40°) and extreme heat - desert heat. There is nothing you can subject the car to that is more extreme than the conditions in which it was validated.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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  • 1 year later...
On January 29, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Cadillac Jim said:

If you have stuck rings, the answer is to deal with that, not to use thicker oil, which may or may not reduce consumption but will likely make the root problem worse by reducing the amount of oil available at the source of the problem.

Thicker oil?  A 10w30 is "thicker" than a 5w30?   Not according to all the data sheets I have read from all the motor oil brands.  The Viscosity at 100c (read that as as the operating temp of the typical engine) of a 5w30 and a 10w30 are the same, irregardless of brand.  All that is different is the winter cold crank start rating.  That is what the "w" stands for... winter, not weight.  and the cold flow viscosity of a 5w30 vs 10w30, when it comes to full synthetics, is minuscule, and each has almost a similar lower cold flow pour point of around -40F.  And viscosity is not a measure of "thickness" but a measure of resistance.  In the next life, strike up a conversation with Isaac Newton and he will explain it to you.  A 10w30 is not thicker than a 5w30.  Both have a kinematic viscosity at 100c of about 10.8.  Even at 40c, they are only a few points difference, hardly worth arguing over.   It is a balancing act... you need resistance to flow (viscosity) to a degree that oil is not squeezed out of bearings under pressure too quickly, but you need a viscosity that is low enough to actually get oil into the bearing surfaces in a sufficient manner.  And winter cold crank rating, or "w" in 5w30 or 10w30 has almost nothing to do with it except when the engine is started cold.  And very few people, except those with a low brain wave activity, will start a engine cold and immediately do WOT and put extreme pressure on the engine components.

Your contention would only be valid if the OP was considering using a 40w oil instead of a 30w oil.    But regarding 5w30 vs 10w30, the 10w30 will have a lower NOACK (burn off vaporization rate) significantly less than a 5w30, because it requires far fewer viscosity improvers that the 5w30 has to meet the lower CCS rating.  And it is the viscosity improvers that can shear under high pressure.  A 10w30 typically will be more shear stable over the oil change interval than a 5w30.  

While it is common to say oils are thicker when cold, that is not accurate. They are not thicker, but have a higher resistance to flow.  A 30w oil its the same thickness at -40F as it is at 200F.  The only thing that changed was the resistance to flow.

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2 hours ago, Cowpie said:

Thicker oil?  A 10w30 is "thicker" than a 5w30?   Not according to all the data sheets I have read from all the motor oil brands.  The Viscosity at 100c (read that as as the operating temp of the typical engine) of a 5w30 and a 10w30 are the same, irregardless of brand.  All that is different is the winter cold crank start rating.  That is what the "w" stands for... winter, not weight.  and the cold flow viscosity of a 5w30 vs 10w30, when it comes to full synthetics, is minuscule, and each has almost a similar lower cold flow pour point of around -40F.  And viscosity is not a measure of "thickness" but a measure of resistance.  In the next life, strike up a conversation with Isaac Newton and he will explain it to you.  A 10w30 is not thicker than a 5w30.  Both have a kinematic viscosity at 100c of about 10.8.  Even at 40c, they are only a few points difference, hardly worth arguing over.   It is a balancing act... you need resistance to flow (viscosity) to a degree that oil is not squeezed out of bearings under pressure too quickly, but you need a viscosity that is low enough to actually get oil into the bearing surfaces in a sufficient manner.  And winter cold crank rating, or "w" in 5w30 or 10w30 has almost nothing to do with it except when the engine is started cold.  And very few people, except those with a low brain wave activity, will start a engine cold and immediately do WOT and put extreme pressure on the engine components.

Your contention would only be valid if the OP was considering using a 40w oil instead of a 30w oil.    But regarding 5w30 vs 10w30, the 10w30 will have a lower NOACK (burn off vaporization rate) significantly less than a 5w30, because it requires far fewer viscosity improvers that the 5w30 has to meet the lower CCS rating.  And it is the viscosity improvers that can shear under high pressure.  A 10w30 typically will be more shear stable over the oil change interval than a 5w30.  

While it is common to say oils are thicker when cold, that is not accurate. They are not thicker, but have a higher resistance to flow.  A 30w oil its the same thickness at -40F as it is at 200F.  The only thing that changed was the resistance to flow.

"  A 10w30 is "thicker" than a 5w30? " is NOT WHAT I SAID AT ALL.  I was referring to the *-40 weight oils, which are specifically warned against in the GM materials (shop manuals and owners' manuals).

Posts to individuals are better posed as PMs.  Publicly criticizing individuals is less that wise, particularly in light of the obvious possibility of misunderstanding a quick reading of a short post.

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Yours was the first response to the OP's question.  He only mentioned two oils.... 5w30 and 10w30, which he was asking about using in place of the 5w30 he had been using.  Nary a peep about a 40w.  Then you responded that it is not wise to use a thicker oil.  Clearly, that would be taken that the reference is 10w30 is thicker than 5w30.  I just went back and made sure myself in case I was in error.  You, in no way, even referenced 40w oils in your initial post response to the OP.    Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but as Walter Cronkite used to say on the evening news back in the day... "And that's the way it is".

I in no way "criticized" you, I corrected an postulated error based on that information I gleaned from the first two posts of this thread.  I did not say you were an idiot or some other diatribe.  The only thing I said was wrong was your contention that one is thicker than the other.  I also corrected what is an assumption by many folks, not just yourself, that viscosity has to do with thickness.  It does not.  It is resistance to flow.  A simple google lookup will prove that.   Nothing in my posts was intended as personal attack and I just re-read it, and I don't see any such in that posting.   While iron will not flow when solid, it has the same molecular structure as iron that is heated and now can be poured.  The molecular thickness never changed, only the viscosity, or flow, due to temperature.  Oil is the same way.

The only dig at anyone was the reference to someone who might go out, jump in the car, start it up on a cold morning, and immediately floor it and do a wide open throttle takeoff.  I did say that would be low brain wave activity. 

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The post I responded to mentioned 10W-40 oil.  We may be mixing threads here.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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I see what Cowpie picked up on, Jim

Cowpie read this entire thread and he is commenting about the first post by Rock and your immediate reply.

Here is what Rock stated in his very first post here:

  1. My 2001 Eldorado goes through oil very quickly.
  2. I used chevron 5w30 oil when I did the oil change. It was recommended highly
  3. Are there any actual miracles in a bottle that I can add to the oil to help. I am assuming I have sticking rings.
  4. Is using 10w30 maybe a better idea. Thats what my other 2 use but this one calls for 5w30.

So Rock is asking if 10W30 would help his oil consumption even though his 2001 calls for 5W30, with NO mention of 40 weight oils

Here is your reply Jim,

If you have stuck rings, the answer is to deal with that, not to use thicker oil, which may or may not reduce consumption but will likely make the root problem worse by reducing the amount of oil available at the source of the problem.

BBF input on this:

Rock asks 2 questions here, 1) are their any miracle additives that can help and 2) is using 10W30 a better idea even though 2001 requires 5W30.

Your reply IMPLIES that you believe that 10W30 is thicker because of your statement, "not to use thicker oil"

Nowhere is 40W mentioned. 

In your defense, you may have read into Rocks question, because he was really asking would thickening the oil help with oil consumption, because of #3 any miracle additives (STP, Motor Honey, etc) along with this question about whether a jump from 5W30 to 10W30 would help.   In those two points, #3 and #4 above Rock is asking if thickening the oil would help (even though at operating temp 5W30 and 10W30 are the same thickness). 

Your reply was not clear and that is what Cowpie picked up, because you came back with an answer to #4, "not to use thicker oil" (oil being the key point here) and it appeared you were saying that 10W30 oil was thicker than 5W30 but the "solution was to fix the problem not use thicker oil".   You probably saw that Rock was asking if thickening the oil would help but your reply was ambiguous.

As we know OIL topics can become heated and Cowpie found a statement that was not true because your reply was ambiguous.  I am happy to see Cowpie is in fact reading these threads carefully and that he has brought with him new information on oil development since zinc has been reduced. 

I hope this clears things up.  

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On the topic of OIL TOPICS they always seem to get heated.  There are statements in this thread that I disagree with. 

I do not believe that synthetic oil should be used in the 93 through 99 Northstars with their 32 rubbing element 33 mm lifters.  The engine clearances were spec'd using conventional oil and given that synthetic flows 7 times better, oil pressure at the top of the engine can be negatively impacted. 

I need to comment on this statement:

 It went from never having needed a quart to burning a quart every 400 miles in a couple of months; ask in a PM and I'll go there but not here. I solved the problem by changing where my car was serviced and getting two oil changes using 5W-30 Mobil 1. After that, it burned a quart every 2000 miles

Two things happened in the above paragraph, 1) you changed where the car was serviced and 2) the new place started using 5W30 Mobil 1 synthetic.    5W30 Mobil 1 synthetic was not likely responsible for the improvement in oil consumption and it is very possible that the prior mechanic was using a cheap low grade oil.    I know that you swear by 5W30 Mobil 1, but it should not be inferred by anyone that Mobil 1 5W30 solved the oil consumption problem.   Not to be discounted are leaks, the oil drain bolt has a replaceable o-ring and it is NEVER replaced in a garage setting, I had one dripping the other day, replaced the o-ring and it stopped. 

I myself have seen inferior oil used by mechanics, we avoid quick oil change chains because of that.  It is very possible that it was not the Mobil 1 synthetic that improved the oil consumption but the old shop was using inferior oil that was the problem and a good grade of standard quaker state or chevron 10W30 would have stopped the consumption problem.   Low quality motor oil with high volatility.  If the oil’s volatility is very high than it could be noticeable in the oil consumption rate.   On the other hand, synthetic oils have a lower volatility so this can also have an impact on the oil consumption, but that was not likely responsible for a sudden jump from 1 qt per 400 miles to no consumption. 

Mechanics for the most part are looking to make as much money as possible and spending as little as possible for parts, oil, filters adds up when compared to Chevron, Quaker State, AC delco and OEM, I saw it first hand.  All one needs to do is peruse Rockauto's range of parts. 

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Just to update this thread started by me. Lol.

I simply resolved my oil consumption by buying another 90s Deville. Havent had any problems since.

Solved 2 things at once. 

the oil consumption and the missing of my Deville

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1 hour ago, rockfangd said:

Just to update this thread started by me. Lol.

I simply resolved my oil consumption by buying another 90s Deville. Havent had any problems since.

Solved 2 things at once. 

the oil consumption and the missing of my Deville

Come on rockfangd, that is a cop out :lol:

Burning oil?, no problem, the solution is, buy another car, :lol:, were you once a car salesman?, that is what dealers do, haha

By the way, it came up during this thread as to whether or not the proper WOT procedure was done.   The most important part of the WOT procedure is taking your foot off the gas when you hit 70-75 in second gear and let the tranny slow the car down to 40.  That action causes high vacuum in the combustion chambers exercising the rings, its the high vacuum caused by the slow down to 40 that is important, not the high RPM from being in 2nd gear.  I am sure by now you know that, but it appeared from the early posts here that you might have been only doing the high RPM part. 

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Lol. I tried everything with that car. I drove it hard every day, tried the WOT procedure many times. Still used oil. I know I must be doing it right with my 2 97s because neither uses oil, At least what I would consider to be substantial.

Real reason why I sold the Eldo is it had way more flaws for me to be able to fix. The normal person would not care. The guy I sold it to loves it, even though it is not perfect.  

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Many of the 2000 and 2001's had their pistons replaced under warranty due to oil consumption if I recall. 

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that they did. High oil consumption was common among almost every early 2000s northstar. 

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15 minutes ago, rockfangd said:

that they did. High oil consumption was common among almost every early 2000s northstar. 

Very odd to, because they had given a lot of thought to the pistons, reducing the combustion ratio, improving combustion burn flame front and used Teflon on the skirts to minimize scuffing and knock.   This allowed them to begin using regular fuel.  How a potential oil consumption problem slipped through the validation is odd, unless the parts supplier deviated in some way creating the problem. 

This is directly from Al Cline, he is the Guru we speak of, his article on Detonation and Preignition (be sure you genuflect :wipetears ):

There are a lot of reasons for fast burn chambers but one nice thing about them is that they become more resistant to detonation. A real world example is the Northstar engine from 1999 to 2000. The 1999 engine was a 10.3:1 compression ratio. It was a premium fuel engine. For the 2000 model year, we revised the combustion chamber, achieved faster bum. We designed it to operate on regular fuel and we only had to lower the compression ratio .3 to only 10:1 to make it work. Normally, on a given engine (if you didn't change the combustion chamber design) to go from premium to regular fuel, it will typically drop one point in compression ratio: With our example, you would expect a Northstar engine at 10.3:1 compression ratio, dropped down to 9.3:1 in order to work on regular. Because of the faster burn chamber, we only had to drop to 10:1. The 10:1 compression ratio still has very high compression with attendant high mechanical efficiency and yet we can operate it at optimum spark advance on regular fuel. That is one example of spark advance in terms of technology. A lot of that was achieved through computational fluid dynamics analysis of the combustion chamber to improve the swirl and tumble and the mixture motion in the chamber to enhance the bum rate

Reference

http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html

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My 1997 ETC never burnt a drop of oil (in the sense that I never added oil, had a message about low oil level, or any other user indication of oil consumption) until it had about 80,000 miles on it, when it suddenly, in one oil change, started burning a quart every 1000 miles.  Another oil change and the consumption went to a quart every 500 miles or less.  I solved the problem by changing where I had the car serviced.  After two oil changes at the new facility, the measured oil consumption was a quart every 2000+ miles, and it slowly improved.

BBF notes that some facilities use cheap oil, and I do believe that this was the problem in my case.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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