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Can you remove a northstar in your garage?


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Ok convinced I have a head gasket leak. Plumes of steam out tailpipe in non-cold weather. Rough idle at start and then clears up.

Haven't had any overheating issues until yesterday morning, noticed the gauge just move over middle and then snap back to center.

I put some bars pellets in it and it cleared up the tailpipe and stopped rough idle. I know this is temporary so please no bashing fix in a bottle.

My question is can one remove the cradle and clear the body to access the rear head by jacking it up in your garage. I'd plan on full time serts or new gm stud kit

I'm thinking maybe building some ramps out of staggered 2x12's for the rear tires and then jacking the body up securely on jack stands.

Has anyone done it before without a lift?

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Yes. I did mine in the garage. I pulled the engine from the top. I had the car on jack stands in the front and once the engine was ready to come out, I had to move it back far enough so I could manuver the engine hoist in front of the car.

If I were dropping the cradle, I would build a rolling dolly to support the powertrain and use the engine hoist to lift the body off the powertrain. The front would need to be reinforced to lift the body.

The short answer is it can be done without a hoist but before I went through the trouble and expense, I would be sure to properly diagnose the problem. Check the purge line, radiator cap to make sure it holds pressure and pressur test the cooling system. There is also a test kit that will test the coolant for combustion gasses and you can pressurize each cylinder with shop air with the piston at top dead center on the compression stroke (valves closed) to make sure there are no bubbles in the surge tank.

A new GM stud kit does not exist. All stud kits are aftermarket. Timeserts are the GM recommended repair.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Kevin we think alike, I have envisioned building a rolling dolly the same size as the carriage also out of 4 by 4s with HD wheels.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

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I used 2 4x4's under the cradle, with steel casters mounted on the 4x4's. I can roll it around with power train on it. I used some long screws through the holes in the cradle to the wood.

I also have an a-frame and 2 come alongs to lift the body. I mounted casters on the A-frame so I can roll the body around also. You will want to be sure your rear tires are fully inflated or the exhaust tips will be rubbing the floor. Since my cradle is elevated on the casters I needed the body up quite high to roll the cradle out. My A-frame is 8'6" tall so it wont fit under an 8' ceiling but the A-frame really doesn't need to be that tall for this project, that is to be able to lift an engine over the radiator support when removing from the top.

th_IMG_20110618_112602.jpg

th_IMG_20110618_112553.jpg

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you definately can.

things that help.

dont get intimidated by the massive engine in confined space

Be sure you have enough time, room, and patience. I had one apart and it was not bad at all. Hardest part I had was securing the car up enough to clear engine

GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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I used 2 4x4's under the cradle, with steel casters mounted on the 4x4's. I can roll it around with power train on it. I used some long screws through the holes in the cradle to the wood.

I also have an a-frame and 2 come alongs to lift the body. I mounted casters on the A-frame so I can roll the body around also. You will want to be sure your rear tires are fully inflated or the exhaust tips will be rubbing the floor. Since my cradle is elevated on the casters I needed the body up quite high to roll the cradle out. My A-frame is 8'6" tall so it wont fit under an 8' ceiling but the A-frame really doesn't need to be that tall for this project, that is to be able to lift an engine over the radiator support when removing from the top.

th_IMG_20110618_112602.jpg

th_IMG_20110618_112553.jpg

Nice Mike!

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Thanks for the replies fellas.

The exhaust tip clearance issue I'd expect to overcome by creating solid ramps from staggered 2x12.

I figured a 4x4 notched across the body lifting spots(spare jack notches) and lifting with a heavy duty high lift transmission jack then placing it back on jackstands.

I just wasn't sure how high the nose would have to be to clear the block.

From looking at Mike's pictures it doesn't appear that high - any chance you took measurements?

Kevin I get the diagnosing a problem, but how much time is it worth to do a compression/air test when I had billowing plumes of steam fromthe tailpipe and now having fluctuating temps. Sure if the front headgasket is to blame and can be done in the vehicle(albeit somewhat difficult) but would you trust the other gasket for very long?

As far as the stud kit goes I'm refering to some stuff I've read here about a gm performance stud kit - any advice as to the best method/product would be helpful, I'm up on the timesert procedure, that part probably "scares" me the least. Is ~$400 reasonable for the drill/tap timesert kit

While I'm at it I have new engine mounts, when I started to change them last year, I could not figure for the life of me how to remove the front one without pulling the radiator.

Again thanks to this forum and all the first hand knowledge. Who'd have thought you could shadetree a luxury car built with today's technology

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basod2002,

I just went and measured the height at the bottom of the radiator support. It is 34" from the ground right now. I can't swear that will clear,but I think so, because I have been out there moving it around a little in the last 11 months. I was using a 4x4 with casters under the cradle, raising the engine 8" higher than if you were to just drag it out. .

I put jack stands under the frame rails once I had the engine out to support it while I was using my a-frame for something, and the angle was very severe to rely on it holding the car. I would not get under it like that. If you are raising the rear also you should be able to get a decent angle. The way mine is now I can at least roll it back and forward when needed.

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Kevin I get the diagnosing a problem, but how much time is it worth to do a compression/air test when I had billowing plumes of steam fromthe tailpipe and now having fluctuating temps. Sure if the front headgasket is to blame and can be done in the vehicle(albeit somewhat difficult) but would you trust the other gasket for very long?

As far as the stud kit goes I'm refering to some stuff I've read here about a gm performance stud kit - any advice as to the best method/product would be helpful, I'm up on the timesert procedure, that part probably "scares" me the least. Is ~$400 reasonable for the drill/tap timesert kit

While I'm at it I have new engine mounts, when I started to change them last year, I could not figure for the life of me how to remove the front one without pulling the radiator.

Again thanks to this forum and all the first hand knowledge. Who'd have thought you could shadetree a luxury car built with today's technology

Considering all the work required to repair the car, personally, I would want to be darn sure it was the headgaskets before tackling a project of this scope. Steam from the tailpipes could be a coincidence of high humidity on a cool day. Fluctuating temperature could be a restricted purge line in the cooling system. You don't know what you don't know. Better to waste a little time eliminating the obvious things than to waste a lot of time and money on a headgasket repair that was unnecssary.

If you find it is only one gasket that is bad (the only way you'd be able to obtain that level of diagnosis would be to pressurize each cylinder with shop air with the piston at top-dead-center on the compression stroke). Timesert all 20 holes (both banks). Even if one is only bad, the other won't be far behind.

The TImesert procedure is nothing to worry about - follow the directions and you will be fine. In fact, a LOT of dealerships could take lessons from the do-it-yourselfers on forums like this one... If a DIY can successfully repair a Northstar engine, why can't a factory trained tech. do the same???

I am pushing 176,000 on the Seville STS I repaired 6-1/2 years ago at 106,000 miles. I bought the car inexpensively knowing the gaskets were shot.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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I removed mine out the top. It's tight but do-able with care. I have been told by the Cad shop that the Time-serts recomended by GM have a high fail rate, Therfore I went with Norm Hun inserts and they are great. Highly recomended.

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I removed mine out the top. It's tight but do-able with care. I have been told by the Cad shop that the Time-serts recomended by GM have a high fail rate, Therfore I went with Norm Hun inserts and they are great. Highly recomended.

The dealer is probably free-handing the drilling process to short cut the time. If the insert is too deep in the block, thread engagement will be lost and they can fail. That is exactly what happened to my STS before I bought it. The idiot at the dealership installed the inserts 1/8-1/4" too deep in the block. I had a heck of a time removing the heads.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'll stick my 2 cents here also. I've done 2 h/g jobs, both with the engine in the car. How you want to do it is your decision. But Keven is correct, you do want to make sure it is the h/g before you start the job. I did not have alot of luck pumping 100 psi air into the cylinders on my 2 cars. After performing the air test twice on my 98, I got just a slight amount of air in the tank from #1 cylinder. On my son's 01 Deville, I could not get air flowing on any cylinder. But he indeed had a bad h/g.So the air test is not always accurate.

Also, the tried and true block test may not always exactly correct. Last summer, my 01 Deville started to indicate a slightly (1 bar) higher temp when going up long hills.No coolant loss or any other symptoms. The block test showed slightly green. Due to other issues, I did not have the time to fix it right away (luckily), Here it is October and I am still driving it 50 miles a day for work, and with the cooler weather, it shows no symptoms at all. The car is still not using coolant, but it is going thru transmission fluid at a high rate. That, along with the smell of the coolant, makes me think I have a trans fluid leak in the radiator. The block test kit looks for hydrocarbons. I'm no chemist, but I think transmission fluid also contains hydrocarbons. My point here, make absolutely sure before you go thru all the trouble that the h/g is actually bad.

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I'll stick my 2 cents here also. I've done 2 h/g jobs, both with the engine in the car. How you want to do it is your decision. But Keven is correct, you do want to make sure it is the h/g before you start the job. I did not have alot of luck pumping 100 psi air into the cylinders on my 2 cars. After performing the air test twice on my 98, I got just a slight amount of air in the tank from #1 cylinder. On my son's 01 Deville, I could not get air flowing on any cylinder. But he indeed had a bad h/g.So the air test is not always accurate.

Also, the tried and true block test may not always exactly correct. Last summer, my 01 Deville started to indicate a slightly (1 bar) higher temp when going up long hills.No coolant loss or any other symptoms. The block test showed slightly green. Due to other issues, I did not have the time to fix it right away (luckily), Here it is October and I am still driving it 50 miles a day for work, and with the cooler weather, it shows no symptoms at all. The car is still not using coolant, but it is going thru transmission fluid at a high rate. That, along with the smell of the coolant, makes me think I have a trans fluid leak in the radiator. The block test kit looks for hydrocarbons. I'm no chemist, but I think transmission fluid also contains hydrocarbons. My point here, make absolutely sure before you go thru all the trouble that the h/g is actually bad.

What does the coolant look like? If trans. fluid is getting into the coolant, it should be visible. Also, if trans. fluid is getting into the coolant, then coolant is getting into the transmission fluid. That is very bad for the clutch packs in the transmission.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Correct, although the pressures are more favorable for trans fluid into the coolant. The coolant does appear to be reddish. The trans fluid does not look bad. It is vented, so small amount of coolant that may be getting into the trans may be boiling out. At this point it is just a theory, until I get the time to take it apart. But, my point was I'm glad I did not jump right on another h/g repair, since the symptoms went away I do not think that h/g's are the problem now.

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Correct, although the pressures are more favorable for trans fluid into the coolant.

Except for when the engine is turned off. The residual pressure in the cooling system can force the coolant into the trans. cooler in the radiator if there is a hole in the cooler.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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I am aware that one would think that the pressures reverse themselves, with the coolant being higher after a hot shutdown. I read where a guy on the other forum stated that when he popped the quick disconnect off the rad for the trans cooling line there was residual pressure there, indicating there may be a check valve inside the trans that locks in the pressure after the engine is shutdown, although I haven't had time to look in the transmission drawings to confirm this. If I was designing a heat transfer system, that is what I would do, but GM, who knows?

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  • 2 months later...

good evening. I just completed an engine removal and reinstall from my 2002 DeVille. the diagnosis from several shops was blown head gasket. The Northstar 4.6 only had 78k miles on it. my friend loaned me his home garage that has a hydrolic 9,000 lb lift in it. I lowered the engine and subframe onto 4 jackstands and then lifted the car off the engine. it turned out that 3 of the right top bank head bolts over cylinders 1 & 3 had pulled loose from the alum block. i took lots of pictures and video's of the project if anyone is interested. i could move the bolts with my fingers! The oil that had pumped out of the head gasket was pooled 3/4" deep on top of the engine block. I can not imagine doing this without a lift. that motor is packed in that car. during the lift it cleared in some places only by one inch. Anyhow, After researching I used the kit by Timesert. I drilled / tapped out all 20 holes. The car is running great! my motor-head friends that thought i was crazy for undertaking this repair were amazed at the quality and machining of the Northstar engine once they got a look inside it. It is too bad that the head-bolt problem gave this engine such a bad reputation.

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thats excellent. A lift cuts time in half literally. Glad to hear you put the work into it. Pics please. Definately interested

GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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th_Northstar46Lsittingon4tonjackstands_zpsf8471934.jpg?t=1358710144

Here is the engine with the car lifted off. the car is above and out of this picture.

th_02liftedoff46_zps753d89c7.jpg?t=1358710113

Here is where the lift was worth its weight in gold. I sat on a stool under the car and drilled out the holes and lowered the car back down.

th_firstviewwithairplenumremoved_zps9f1af396.jpg?t=1358710614

you can see the oil pool right below cyl 1&3. i could move the 3 headbolts by hand they were so loose.

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  • 1 month later...

For those pulling the engine out the top. Are you pulling the trans with the engine? Or are you pulling the engine solo? I'm trying to pull the engine on my '96 (82,000 miles) but the engine will not separate from the trans. I can only find 4 bolts.

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For those pulling the engine out the top. Are you pulling the trans with the engine? Or are you pulling the engine solo? I'm trying to pull the engine on my '96 (82,000 miles) but the engine will not separate from the trans. I can only find 4 bolts.

The engine should easily separate from the transmission. If it does not, you missed a bolt - most likely on one of the braces/brackets that are between the engine and trans., not the large four bolts at the bell housing.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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