olddog

Mobil 1 synthetic

24 posts in this topic

Most know that Mobil 1 is both factory fill and the recommended oil for many GM vehicles and, being a PAO synthetic, it is a fine product. Most think that besides viscosity there is little difference in Mobil 1 options - WRONG!!

GM recommends the 5-30 wt. Mobil 1 for CAFE ratings; it seems you can get a very minute amount better mileage with this viscosity and that is good for GM and the gov't mandates for mileage. It is NOT the best for your engine. While I have used ONLY Mobil 1 since 1986 I have been careful to watch the changes in oil due to the gov't mandates which effect chiefly The Zinc and Phosphorus levels which are probably the two most important additives for fighting friction and wear.

All of the 30 wt series of M1 oils have zinc/phosphorus levels of 800 ppm which is marginal and should never be used with non roller lifters. The 0W-40 Mobil 1, used to be called their European Formula, has 1000ppm of phosphorus and 1100 ppm of zinc to allow for higher reving units. This oil also has the second highest film strength of any Mobil 1 product. In short, it is a stronger, better lubricating oil. Hmm.

Only the 15w-50 has a higher film strength and a greater amount of phosphorus and zinc but, due to viscosity, it has the highest amount of parasitic drag.

So where is all of this going? Mobil 1 is good stuff but by slightly changing the viscosity you get far better protection. Want proof: we used the 0w-40 in a 522" drag motor for four years and, when freshened, all bearings were perfect and we shifted this unit at 7200 rpm. We use the same oil in a Reher-Morrison 565" unit too. Both had very high lift cams, over 14:1 compression and ran very hard 'at play'.

The 0w-40 is a bit harder to find but readily accessible and has the same cost. It is in everything I own from the STS-V down to the lawn mower. Think about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate the info and discussion. But could you explain to me why my 91 Seville 4.9 never used a drop of 10W30 dino oil but when I used 10W30 Mobil 1, driving from NY to Virginia Beach, I needed to stop and put 3 quarts in at about 300 miles? I did say that the Mobil 1 viscosity seemed wrong, but what could be the explanation for this extremely high consumption?

Once I went back to 10W30 dino oil, never used oil again. Its good to hear from someone who has experience beating on the Mobil 1, then tearing the engine down, Thanks


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most know that Mobil 1 is both factory fill and the recommended oil for many GM vehicles and, being a PAO synthetic, it is a fine product. Most think that besides viscosity there is little difference in Mobil 1 options - WRONG!!

GM recommends the 5-30 wt. Mobil 1 for CAFE ratings; it seems you can get a very minute amount better mileage with this viscosity and that is good for GM and the gov't mandates for mileage. It is NOT the best for your engine. While I have used ONLY Mobil 1 since 1986 I have been careful to watch the changes in oil due to the gov't mandates which effect chiefly The Zinc and Phosphorus levels which are probably the two most important additives for fighting friction and wear.

All of the 30 wt series of M1 oils have zinc/phosphorus levels of 800 ppm which is marginal and should never be used with non roller lifters. The 0W-40 Mobil 1, used to be called their European Formula, has 1000ppm of phosphorus and 1100 ppm of zinc to allow for higher reving units. This oil also has the second highest film strength of any Mobil 1 product. In short, it is a stronger, better lubricating oil. Hmm.

Only the 15w-50 has a higher film strength and a greater amount of phosphorus and zinc but, due to viscosity, it has the highest amount of parasitic drag.

So where is all of this going? Mobil 1 is good stuff but by slightly changing the viscosity you get far better protection. Want proof: we used the 0w-40 in a 522" drag motor for four years and, when freshened, all bearings were perfect and we shifted this unit at 7200 rpm. We use the same oil in a Reher-Morrison 565" unit too. Both had very high lift cams, over 14:1 compression and ran very hard 'at play'.

The 0w-40 is a bit harder to find but readily accessible and has the same cost. It is in everything I own from the STS-V down to the lawn mower. Think about it.

I've been saying that for years. I believe the non-starburst fleet oils like Rotella and Delvac have higher phosphorus levels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate the info and discussion. But could you explain to me why my 91 Seville 4.9 never used a drop of 10W30 dino oil but when I used 10W30 Mobil 1, driving from NY to Virginia Beach, I needed to stop and put 3 quarts in at about 300 miles? I did say that the Mobil 1 viscosity seemed wrong, but what could be the explanation for this extremely high consumption?

Once I went back to 10W30 dino oil, never used oil again. Its good to hear from someone who has experience beating on the Mobil 1, then tearing the engine down, Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know of two reasons a car uses synthetics in high amounts. If a car is run in very gently and the rings never fully seat it will consume synthetic at an alarming rate. Likewise, if a motor is worn it too will use a lot of a synthetic.

We had this with a new 522" drag motor that smoked out the left bank. Seems the engine did not fully seat the rings during dyno pulls. To remedy we ran the car for twenty passes on Valvoline dinosaur oil and then went back to the Mobil 1 with no more smoke etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, at the time it had about 90,000 miles, it was the 4.9 and never used dino oil. It was odd and really shook my confidence in Mobil 1, I have never recommended it since.

In addition, the guru who used to frequent this board said synthetic was unnecessary as we did not tax the oil enough to need the extra level of protection synthetic afforded.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, at the time it had about 90,000 miles, it was the 4.9 and never used dino oil. It was odd and really shook my confidence in Mobil 1, I have never recommended it since.

In addition, the guru who used to frequent this board said synthetic was unnecessary as we did not tax the oil enough to need the extra level of protection synthetic afforded.

My car came from the factory with dino oil...

I only had it a few days and went on a trip.

The second morning on the trip I checked the oil and it was almost a quart low.

I bought a quart and put about half of it in.

The next morning it was almost a quart low...

I put the other 1/2 quart in it.

The next morning it was again almost a quart low...

I bought a 2nd quart of oil and put about half of it in.

Later that day I followed a new Mercedes and and a new Jaguar for about 150 miles...

Lets just say that they were in an extreme hurry... I hit the speed limiter several times and they would get way ahead of me, but traffic would occasionally slow them down and I could catch back up.

It has not used any oil since.. :) :)

After the first 3 oil changes... the first done at less than 2000 miles...(after that first trip) and the next 2 at 3000 miles each... I switched to synthetic.

I gradually lengthened my oil change interval to 50 percent oil life left which was around 6000 miles.

Now I change it at about 30 percent oil life left on the OLM.... which is usually around 8000 or 9000 miles.

It uses no oil between changes.

The 1/2 quart that was left of the 2nd quart I bought ... is still in the trunk... just in case I ever need it... :)

It has been there since January of 2007...

The car now has 113,000 miles on it.

I just went out and took this pic.

.

20120404_180546.jpg


Posted Image

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most know that Mobil 1 is both factory fill and the recommended oil for many GM vehicles and, being a PAO synthetic, it is a fine product. Most think that besides viscosity there is little difference in Mobil 1 options - WRONG!!

GM recommends the 5-30 wt. Mobil 1 for CAFE ratings; it seems you can get a very minute amount better mileage with this viscosity and that is good for GM and the gov't mandates for mileage. It is NOT the best for your engine. While I have used ONLY Mobil 1 since 1986 I have been careful to watch the changes in oil due to the gov't mandates which effect chiefly The Zinc and Phosphorus levels which are probably the two most important additives for fighting friction and wear.

All of the 30 wt series of M1 oils have zinc/phosphorus levels of 800 ppm which is marginal and should never be used with non roller lifters. The 0W-40 Mobil 1, used to be called their European Formula, has 1000ppm of phosphorus and 1100 ppm of zinc to allow for higher reving units. This oil also has the second highest film strength of any Mobil 1 product. In short, it is a stronger, better lubricating oil. Hmm.

Only the 15w-50 has a higher film strength and a greater amount of phosphorus and zinc but, due to viscosity, it has the highest amount of parasitic drag.

So where is all of this going? Mobil 1 is good stuff but by slightly changing the viscosity you get far better protection. Want proof: we used the 0w-40 in a 522" drag motor for four years and, when freshened, all bearings were perfect and we shifted this unit at 7200 rpm. We use the same oil in a Reher-Morrison 565" unit too. Both had very high lift cams, over 14:1 compression and ran very hard 'at play'.

The 0w-40 is a bit harder to find but readily accessible and has the same cost. It is in everything I own from the STS-V down to the lawn mower. Think about it.

Cadillac North Star engines should not use synthetic oils. At least according my owners manual 1998 Cad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cadillac North Star engines should not use synthetic oils. At least according my owners manual 1998 Cad.

Incorrect information for a blanket statement covering all NorthStars...

By no later than 2006 "MOST" Cadillacs came with Mobil 1 from the factory except for the DTS.

By 2007 "ALL" Cadillacs came with Mobil 1 from the factory "INCLUDING" the DTS.


Posted Image

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is funny but since this post I have heard of many who are 'using oil' in new cars. Not all are old farts like me either; some are in their 30's and have bought new vehicles and they use oil.

I think using Mobil 1 as factory fill for the first fill may be a questionable practice as not many are hard on cars from the get go. I find those who say they are going to hammer the thing after it's first heat cycle usually have NO problems with oil consumption as the rings truly get a chance to seat. The ones who are very gentle with the car generally have useage issues. This is especially true of the 'cruse' crowd in Vettes.

Lastly, none of the 4 cyls seem to use oil and my theory is that they have to rev a lot more than an eight cylinder unit just to keep up with traffic and their rings seat rather quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't say I "HAMMER" on mine...but other people may think differently... LOL

It does regularly see the upper end of the tach...rev limiter is set at 7000 in first, 6800 in second and 6600 in third.


Posted Image

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always did this from the second time a drove a vehicle; just didn't bang gears in a manual trans. ALL seated rings well and none used oil at all. Used to think this was mythology but not according to Reher-Morrison.

As to my STS-V, I bought it used with 9700 on the clock and have been usning it pretty hard with no ill effects or oil consumption but it does go through tires.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the past I have used Mobil One in many cars and have always had positive results. I now use Amzoil in everything including my Harley. I am now the proud owner of two Northstars, a 2000 and a 2002. Is there anything wrong with running synthetic oil in these engines? I would like to know before I drop the money on the oil for these things. And to Cadillac Jim, that is why your Caddy has been trouble free because you do use synthetic!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, jlstemmerding, you woke up an old oil topic! Here's my take on things, reading through it again:

  • I started using Mobil 1 5W-30 in a Quad 4 HO in 1989 as GM's recommended premium oil; 5W-30 dino oil was the owner's manual recommendation. There was a noticeable difference in engine snap and in high RPM performance (it had a redline of 6800 and a rev limiter at 7200+).
  • When I got my 1997 ETC, GM also recommended 5W-30 Mobil 1 as a premium oil for my Northstar. I used it from the beginning because I wanted that extra couple of horsepower is there for the same reason that you get an extra bit of gas mileage: less power going to heat in the oil. The dealer put dino oil in it by mistake once and I could tell when they brought the car around and I started it; they changed it again for free.
  • I have absolutely no idea about BBF's experience with needing 3 quarts in 300 miles in his 4.9. I would have to see the car. The only thing that could burn a quart of oil every 100 miles that I can think of is blowing it through the PCV valve; you can't get that much oil past the rings or valve guides. And, burning that much oil will give you smoke and fouled plugs, which BBF didn't mention, so it might have been a leak - but he didn't mention a leak or fixing anything.
  • The amount of ZDDP put in modern oils is about the same as when they went up on ZDDP in the early 1960's because of the hot new high-performance engines in the horsepower wars. It went much higher before they started reducing it to go easier on the cat and was reduced in recent years, but the content that they have now is plenty for 1990's cars.
  • The OLM has a 100% safety factor, and the worst I have heard about the ZDDP is that it is 50% of what they had in 1990's oils. So, the OLM can still be used for scheduling your oil changes.
  • The 1997 FSM and owner's manual very specifically says never to use oil with a -40 in the Northstar, and specifically says to use "starburst" oils of 5W-30 or 10W-30 weights.
  • Mobil 1 has the same amount of ZDDP as dino oils, to my knowledge.
  • Amsoil is another excellent oil that is equivalent to Mobil 1 as far as I could tell in extensive web research that I did a few years ago.
  • The difference in full synthetic oils like Mobil 1 and Amsoil is that they don't have the waxes and napthas that are in refined dino oils. The waxes make it get thick when cold and the napthas reduce film strength in hot oil and give it a lower flash point, and emulsify condensation and absorb blowby chemicals. Those and other impurities break down with blowby stuff and water condensation and such in the oil, particularly when it gets really hot. This accounts for the higher film strength, better low temperature and high temperature viscosity, higher flash point, and less water absorption of synthetic oils. But it's not a mysterious "different" stuff. It's just better oil.

CTS-V_Dashboard.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what Cadillac Jim is saying is using better oil in your car won't hurt it. There are some people out there that still think synthetic oil will blow their engine up!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have also found that the "better fuel economy" of 5W-30 Mobil 1 is noticeable as a little more snap of engine response off-idle, and is most noticeable as how much punch the motor has at redline. It's not profound, and a lot of people wouldn't notice or care, but it's there. Between keeping a cleaner crankcase, having more heat resistance and film strength than the engine can ever need, a tiny bit of fuel economy, longer oil change intervals, no accepting water to form sludge, and a tiny bit more horsepower, it was a no-brainer to me.

Bit I'm a motorhead who bought my ETC for performance (I didn't buy my CTS-V for the ride, either). Your mileage may differ.


CTS-V_Dashboard.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting post. I have only just read it because it was refreshed recently. I once worked in a service station, Mobil gas station actually, and the owner pushed and pushed Mobil 1.

He once talked a customer into putting it in his daughters old Chevy Malibu, thinking like a 69 or 70. It had alot of miles on it, but never had a problem with regular oil. Well, in one wek it went through over 6 qts. of Mobil 1 at like $5 a quart I think back then. It wasn't a problem with the oil , but with the fact it was an old tired engine and the synthetic just ran right through it in leaks and burning it up basically.

I have used it in my 68 AMX from the get go when I put a fresh 390 in it with no problem. I have no oil history on my Eldo , and use regular non synthetic or part synthetic in it , at 116,000 miles now, I would be sceptical to swich it over.

By the way - what do you all mean by "dino" oil ? lol - never heard that term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the way - what do you all mean by "dino" oil ? lol - never heard that term.

Conventional, non-synthetic motor oil.


Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As in dinosaur; buried and from underground (though oil is not dinosaur derived; just formed in that period of history).


Chuck

'17 XT5, '04 Bravada........but still lusting for that '69 Z-28

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking of that gasoline supplier who used to use the dinosaur as a logo -

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting post. I have only just read it because it was refreshed recently. I once worked in a service station, Mobil gas station actually, and the owner pushed and pushed Mobil 1.

He once talked a customer into putting it in his daughters old Chevy Malibu, thinking like a 69 or 70. It had alot of miles on it, but never had a problem with regular oil. Well, in one wek it went through over 6 qts. of Mobil 1 at like $5 a quart I think back then. It wasn't a problem with the oil , but with the fact it was an old tired engine and the synthetic just ran right through it in leaks and burning it up basically.

I have used it in my 68 AMX from the get go when I put a fresh 390 in it with no problem. I have no oil history on my Eldo , and use regular non synthetic or part synthetic in it , at 116,000 miles now, I would be sceptical to swich it over.

By the way - what do you all mean by "dino" oil ? lol - never heard that term.

Synthetic oil can be by its nature high detergent especially since back when Mobil 1 first came out in 1974 it was Gr. IV PAO synthetic, not any more. What it was doing was cleaning up the engine to such as extent that the oil was used up very fast and could not keep any more contaminates is suspension to be removed by the filter, since it was at capacity as well. In that case you should change the oil filters more often till the oil consumption goes down; when introducing high quality synthetic oil into engines run a looooooooooooooong time on mineral oil.

At one time, synthetic oil was made exclusively from polyalphaolefin (PAO) and ester base oils. Then the landscape became a bit murky in 1999 when Mobil challenged Castrol when Castrol introduced an oil made from Group lll base oil and called it synthetic. The dispute played out before the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau and Castrol prevailed.

The problem is that there is no official regulation as to what constitutes synthetic. An oil with less than 50 percent synthetic base oil can be labeled synthetic. In fact, there is absolutely nothing to prevent motor oil marketers from labeling oils made from conventional Group l or Group ll base oils as synthetic. There is currently no testing to verify the base oil content. And even if it was proven that the product contained no synthetic oil, there are no legal ramifications since no official definitions exist for the category.

Edited by Z15

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we set out to decieve.LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only "full" synthetics I would trust out of a box are Mobil 1 and Amsoil. Mobil 1 is tied up with GM factor fill and dealer recommendation so they can't change away from what we expect without public ramifications that would kill them as the best known premium oil. Amsoil markets to the racing crowd and their customers depend on the heat resistance and film strength that they must sustain to serve their market.


CTS-V_Dashboard.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.