Replacing alternator - Question on type

[93SixtySpecial]

The bearing is going out on my 93 60 Special and I was going to replace it. I was looking on rockauto and oreillys website and the price for a remaned alternator w/o heated windshield is $128 and the one for a heated windshield is $102. This doesn't make sense to me. They are both 140 amp, why the price difference? Could I buy the one with heated windshield even though mine does not have it? I wouldn't think it would be a different size, especially if they are the same amp output. What do you guys think?

[BodybyFisher]

That does not make sense. Check Rockauto.com we have a 5% discount here someplace.

Personally, I would stick with an ACDELCO rebuilt unitor rebuild it myself, what is wrong with it?

[93SixtySpecial]

Rockauto is where it was more expensive too. The bearing is going out and making a growling noise and I believe the regulator is bad on it also causing a flickering in the lights. Not 100% on the second part.

Do you think I could probably just get the one that's for the heated windsheild option even though I don't have it? I wouldn't think it would matter because they are both the same amps. But maybe I'm wrong.

[lothos]

Do you think I could probably just get the one that's for the heated windsheild option even though I don't have it? I wouldn't think it would matter because they are both the same amps. But maybe I'm wrong.

I don't think it matters, either. I had a 95 STS with the heated windsield and replaced the windshield because it cracked. The installers simply took the electrical plug from the windshield and disconnected it.

I think you could probably use either alternator.

[KHE]

You can have your existing alternator repaired for $60.00 - $70.00 at an alternator shop. Personally, I prefer that method over chain store junk.

[BodybyFisher]

Ok here is the scoop, I called my local starter, motor and alternator rebuilder, John from Montrose Rebuilders, Main Street, Babylon, NY to get the facts. John has rebuilt all of my alternators and he is knowledgable about the problems we encounter when cheap aftermarket parts are used by the "Lifetime" starter chains out there. He does a quality job of rebuilding and has a beautiful shop.

First off, while they are both the same AMPERAGE, they are NOT identical alternators. The one for the heated windshield has additional power lugs that go to a transformer for the windshield and it has beefed up internal wiring.

The reason the heated windshield alternator is cheaper is because...drum roll now..... they are in LESS demand! The old supply and demand curve at work.

As a result, its cheaper! Gotta love Capitalism, it WORKS Given that most of the heated windshields have been cracked from stones and have been replaced with NON-HEATED windshields due to a heated windshield's prohibitive cost, there is little demand for the alternator for the heated windshield anymore and they probably have a surplus supply.

As to weather or not you can take advantage of the price and use it, my answer is probably yes, but 1) I would put them side by side and check the power connector orientation relative to the frame bolts between the two alternators and 2), I would find a way to COVER and PROTECT any electrical connectors that may be open to shorting out if there are any that are out in the open because no connector is connected and they are vulnerable to being shorted out by say a dropped wrench, etc .

Hope that helps

That said, I would follow the Venerable KHE's advice and have your unit rebuilt, with good parts (ACDELCO, STANDARD, DELPHI) along with American made bearings and you will save money and have a much better unit at the end...

As a side note, I am trying to coax John from Montrose to develop a web site for his wonderful starter, motor and alternator rebuilding company. I would want him to become a supporting vendor at Caddyinfo, and we could just send our alternators and starters to John to have him bring them back to spec. What do you all think about that idea, would you be reluctant to send your alternator out and get it back say 72 hours later to have it rebuilt using quality parts? Let me know what you think, maybe the additional shipping would drive the price up, but if you didnt need a rushed turnaround it could make sense. Opinions welcomed on my idea

[Texas Jim]

Since RockAuto shows $230 bucks for mine plus an 80 dollar core charge for a total of $310 bucks...for a REMANUFACTURED one..

I would be interested in where I could have it rebuilt "RIGHT"... and more economically... even if it did take three or four days to get it back..

[bobbnsueb@sbcglobal.net]

Something I didn't see mentioned is the pulley size.

The non heated is 62mm and the heated is 57mm.

Looks like they measure the ribs not the flange,

So the heated type will spin a bit faster probably to supply more at lower RPMs.

The rebuilder I called ballparked the price at $140 to $150.

I always rebuilt my own Delco in the 1960-70 models

But the regulator in this 140 amp beauty is around $85.

That plus the brushes and the worn out needle bearings that sometimes score the armature is a bit too much

Although it looks like the needle bearings now have an inner race pressed on to the shaft.(good improvement).

My case is this is a bad time$ for this, So yesterday I went to Chico Pick and Pull and bought one for $30.

That included $7.00 core and tax and environment care.

So after I return the old one the cost will be $23.00

30 day guarantee plenty of time to see if it is reliable.

It is on and working but I haven't driven it far yet, We will see today.

Bob B

----------------------------------------------------------------

First off, while they are both the same AMPERAGE, they are NOT identical alternators. The one for the heated windshield has additional power lugs that go to a transformer for the windshield and it has beefed up internal wiring.

The reason the heated windshield alternator is cheaper is because...drum roll now..... they are in LESS demand! The old supply and demand curve at work.

As a result, its cheaper! Gotta love Capitalism, it WORKS Given that most of the heated windshields have been cracked from stones and have been replaced with NON-HEATED windshields due to a heated windshield's prohibitive cost, there is little demand for the alternator for the heated windshield anymore and they probably have a surplus supply.

As to weather or not you can take advantage of the price and use it, my answer is probably yes, but 1) I would put them side by side and check the power connector orientation relative to the frame bolts between the two alternators and 2), I would find a way to COVER and PROTECT any electrical connectors that may be open to shorting out if there are any that are out in the open because no connector is connected and they are vulnerable to being shorted out by say a dropped wrench, etc .

Hope that helps

That said, I would follow the Venerable KHE's advice and have your unit rebuilt, with good parts (ACDELCO, STANDARD, DELPHI) along with American made bearings and you will save money and have a much better unit at the end...

As a side note, I am trying to coax John from Montrose to develop a web site for his wonderful starter, motor and alternator rebuilding company. I would want him to become a supporting vendor at Caddyinfo, and we could just send our alternators and starters to John to have him bring them back to spec. What do you all think about that idea, would you be reluctant to send your alternator out and get it back say 72 hours later to have it rebuilt using quality parts? Let me know what you think, maybe the additional shipping would drive the price up, but if you didnt need a rushed turnaround it could make sense. Opinions welcomed on my idea

Edited November 14, 2011 by bobb

[KHE]

The rebuilder I called ballparked the price at $140 to $150.

I always rebuilt my own Delco in the 1960-70 models

But the regulator in this 140 amp beauty is around $85.

That plus the brushes and the worn out needle bearings that sometimes score the armature is a bit too much

Although it looks like the needle bearings now have an inner race pressed on to the shaft.(good improvement).

My case is this is a bad time$ for this, So yesterday I went to Chico Pick and Pull and bought one for $30.

That included $7.00 core and tax and environment care.

So after I return the old one the cost will be $23.00

30 day guarantee plenty of time to see if it is reliable.

It is on and working but I haven't driven it far yet, We will see today.

Bob B

WOW! That rebuilder is pricey!

[BodybyFisher]

Good info on the pulley size bobb!

[bobbnsueb@sbcglobal.net]

Good info on the pulley size bobb!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: added part numbers.

In addition to the pulley size and plugs?

There is a difference in the part number.

The number is stamped in the case just above the

mounting bolt toward the front of the car

Non heated 1101578 62mm pulley

Heated 1101579 57mm pulley

Also next to that is the 140 amp stamp on both.

Bob B

Edited November 14, 2011 by bobb

[BodybyFisher]

This is what I love about caddyinfo, the brainstorming of info is amazing

[BodybyFisher]

The rebuilder I called ballparked the price at $140 to $150.

I always rebuilt my own Delco in the 1960-70 models

But the regulator in this 140 amp beauty is around $85.

That plus the brushes and the worn out needle bearings that sometimes score the armature is a bit too much

Although it looks like the needle bearings now have an inner race pressed on to the shaft.(good improvement).

My case is this is a bad time$ for this, So yesterday I went to Chico Pick and Pull and bought one for $30.

That included $7.00 core and tax and environment care.

So after I return the old one the cost will be $23.00

30 day guarantee plenty of time to see if it is reliable.

It is on and working but I haven't driven it far yet, We will see today.

Bob B

WOW! That rebuilder is pricey!

The last time I had mine done it was $120, that was about 3 years ago

[JimD]

....First off, while they are both the same AMPERAGE, they are NOT identical alternators. The one for the heated windshield has additional power lugs that go to a transformer for the windshield and it has beefed up internal wiring.

Can someone post a copy of the wiring diagram for an early '90s model alternator and/or heated windshield.

I am really curious about this transformer business.

[BodybyFisher]

I don't have a schematic but its called the Heated Windshield Power Module you will see it mentioned midway down this page, it has a wire that connects to the bottom of the windshield.

http://www.shopcarpro.com/Cadillacpage.html

[BodybyFisher]

Here is a description of the heated windshield, at this link showing the three phase transformer / rectifier and heated windshield power module from a 96

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/236240-heated-windshield-2.html

[JimD]

Here is a description of the heated windshield, at this link showing the three phase transformer / rectifier and heated windshield power module from a 96

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/236240-heated-windshield-2.html

Not quite. I looked at all 13 posts and did not see a schematic diagram that satisified my curiocity.

As usual, the 'opinions' were amusing.

[BodybyFisher]

I am not sure what you are looking for but maybe this will help.

Here is a scan of the HWPM from the above link, that shows TRANSFORMER/RECTIFIER on it, with LEADS directly from the CHARGING SYSTEM, that appears to support what I was saying that the two alternators are different. That was ALL I was attempting to illustrate, I am not an electrical engineer, I can only read schematics and draw rough conclusions. and this supports the statement that John at Montrose made that the two alternators were different, and that was the point of my posting, to clear up the reasoning why the prices were different and that the two alternators were NOT identical even though both were 140 amps

[JimD]

I am not sure what you are looking for but maybe this will help.

It does help satisfy my curiosity. Thank you.

Here is a scan of the HWPM from the above link, that shows TRANSFORMER/RECTIFIER on it, with LEADS directly from the CHARGING SYSTEM, that appears to support what I was saying that the two alternators are different.

Very different as far as the external connections are concerned I would say.

That is the only example I know of where an automobile accessory is using alternating current from the charging system. In addition to the "normal" direct current output of course.

[BodybyFisher]

Interesting Jim, I guess that explains the smaller pulley also?, to increase the 'cycles' at low RPM?, or was that done to diminish the load on the alternator?

[BodybyFisher]

So what use would one of these alternators have if you installed one forgetting about the heated windshield? (cell phone chargers, amps, refrigerators, etc)

Is there any indication how many volts are being outputted?, is it 12 volts AC or 120 volts AC (which I kind of doubt)

[JimD]

So what use would one of these alternators have if you installed one forgetting about the heated windshield? (cell phone chargers, amps, refrigerators, etc)

The AC output could not be used for anything that was designed to operate on 60 Hz. The AC output frequency is going to vary with alternator speed.

Is there any indication how many volts are being outputted?, is it 12 volts AC or 120 volts AC (which I kind of doubt)

The alternator output would not be much more than 20 Volts AC. The transformer would step that up to whatever voltage the windshield was designed to operate with.

Which raises the question of the physical construction of that transformer. An inductive load (like a transformer) operates at peak efficiency at a specific frequency. But here we have a transformer that will see a wide range of frequencies due to changes in engine speed.

I think I know why that heated windshield design did not survive very long as an option.

[93SixtySpecial]

Thanks for all the info! I honestly don't feel safe having anyone rebuild it around here. Ever since the oil boom everyone has gotten greedy and sloppy with their work due to being overworked. Plus the price difference isn't too much difference. I can get a rebuilt Delco non-heated windshield alternator from rockauto for about $120, plus core of course. The heated winshield rebuilt is about $100. I think for the $20, I might just order the proper one.

[Andy Casapini]

I have a 1998 Deville without a heated windshield. My OEM alternator came with a 62mm pulley but Autozone was out of them. Even online, I could not get one with a 62mm pulley. So I ordered the one with the 57mm pulley and just swapped pulleys (Duralast Gold with lifetime warranty). At worst, it's just the same as the one that would have had a 62mm pulley on it. At best, I have a beefier alternator spinning a little slower than it was designed for so it will last longer. Win-win situation! Honestly, I looked them over and I think they are identical alternators except for the pulley size to get one to spin a little faster than the other. The car runs great. The dash panel says the battery amps are 13v to 14v all the time now. 

[BodybyFisher]

I am glad this worked for you.  Historically we have not seen good results with lifetime warranty alternators and prefer AC DELCO reman units.  Glad this worked out