Multiple Coolant Leaks

[Carjockey71]

Mike - I was reluctant to leave it on all night over night as the tool is a rental and it's not possible to close my hood all the way. I live in a decent community but we have had a rsh of car break ins so didnt feel like taking the chance of letting the talk disappear.

I drove it for a bit today and it starting to run hot again! Until I could get the cap off I was thinking the worse, looking in all sort of places for leaks. I got the cap off and it took another gallon + of coolant, I still have oe more 'final' flush to go. Is there a way of pushing the air pockets out of the system or do you just have to deal with them and keep checking for the first few days. There was seemingly no coolant loss, but with the flushes I have done it was hard for me to remember how much I had poured into the system at that point so it being a gallon down doesnt surprise me - no leaks whee I did the work or anywhere. I still suspect the heater core might have a leak in it. Thats about a 3 gallon syste, right?

Thanks again

Paul

P.S. When I have a chance like I have said I am going to post a complete how to on this, along with all the parts, tools, etc. Should I keep running on this thread or start a new one?

[Ranger]

If the pressure held for 3 1/2 hours, there are no (external) leaks. You did check the heater core. There is no valve. It has coolant running through it all the time so you did pressure test that as well.

After a coolant change you rev the engine to about 3K a few times and hold it there for a bit. That should purge most of the air from the system. Check it again after the next 3 or 4 drives just in case and top off as necessary. After that there should be NO coolant loss.

[mike5514]

The cooling system capacity is 12.5qts. according to my 97 manual. Cap! did you check or replace surge cap with a known good one?

After everything is finished no leaks normal temps. and 500 miles or more do a block test (exhaust gasses in coolant) if not done already, autozone has the tester 25.00 deposit only. You should also do this test before any repairs.

In my opinion the HG block test. system pressure test and surge line flow check should be done once a year, or after any signs of overheating and when the cooling system is open for any reason.Mike

[BodybyFisher]

Sounds like you are doing good!

[torque]

Welcome to caddyinfo. Where have you been lol.

Water pump is easy.

Dont wait to get the cooling system fixed. You dont want a headgasket issue. this makes me wonder if the coolant change was overdue. Dont take offense please. Usually I only see heatercore failure when the coolant breaks down and becomes acidic.

All you do to change the waterpump is drain the coolant, remove the water pump housing and the water pump is removed and installed by the tool.

I dont know about the heatercore but I know in the 90s they werent bad at all to change. I recommend using Dexcool and following a 2 year changing cycle.

[torque]

Bought a 2000 dts 2 years ago, was a basket case engine wise, coolant was let go and it rusted the head gaskets into! The strange thing is it did not show! i.e, no coolant in the oil, no oil in the coolant, no white smoke out exhaust, nothing shown on spark plugs but oil seals failed around spark plugs were very oily. Changed the following, water pump, shortened heater hoses by about 6 feet, changed them to convoluted stainless steel,replaced the surge tank, it always read low coolant and leaked around the base of the neck, found out the magnet in the tanks float fell out too! Changed the 1/4" surge tank line to teflon with braided stainless steel line, eliminated the extra line that goes to the alternator by teeing it off the line going to the surge tank,another 4 foot line length savings, new thicker radiator and new cooling fans, switched to Evans NPG+ waterless coolant. Also put in head studs from NorthStar Performance in Canada, Flatout gaskets from Summit racing, these are stainless steel with neoprene coating. While I was in there changed the timing set, the chain guides wore through but was impossible to see with the chain in place. Also put in new bottom end bolts as the all the oil seals-gaskets let go and a new oil pump. I mention this because if you have a combustion leak, it will blow out the gaskets-seals and cause an oil leak, this one looked like the exxon valdez oil spill! To be sure you don't have a combustion leak, test that coolant! Got the tester from napa for cheap, if the blue liquid in it turns pee yellow........... All of this was done in my basement garage without benefit of a post type lift, just a hydraulic lift table and floor jack, and a homemade engine dolly to roll the engine-trans out from under the body. Just my 2 cents worth. A novel by Torque. I would be more than happy to help with any questions. Thanks.

[Texas Jim]

Good job Torque...

Glad to hear it all turned out OK...

[Carjockey71]

Torque- I think you might have cursed me! LOL Now that all is said and done and I am moving on to other projects that I have put off on the car. BTW cooling wise, she is running nice, no cooling loss, no overheats, everything is wonderful, BUT no I have a DTC code of P0410 which from what I reasd is water in the secondary air pump, I havent check the fuse box, as I checked all the fuses before buttoning it up anyways, I am wondering (I am almost postive that it is not a fuse) that since I literally flushed that engine from every hole I could find I know that I must have gotten water in the pump, I just know it, as it's the onlt thing I can think of. I am going to try the 'cotter pin' fix on my back passenger window tonight and see how that goes, from what I read it works well, the only complaint is some 'play' before it catches, I figure that I can make up that smal 'play' distance with rubber gromets, as well as put a couple in the end of the cotter pin, grease the hell out of it and it sound be quiet with minium play.

Getting back to what you were saying about the combustable gases - Before my water pump let go I was losing coolant at about a quart every 3 days, now since I have been through the system (minus pulling the heater core as it held 18lbs of pressure for 4+ hours I know it was the Water Pump Housing to block gasket that I heard hiss in the orignal pressure test, way back in the begging of this thread you will read me deabting on doing or trying to seal it with BARRS, well needless to say I did it, and not I am not down any coolant, everything works well, drove it over 600 miles and let it run over 23 hrs since the button up. This DTC code just came up the other day on my way back from Tampa, I got that and U1000 as well (I also have the famous 0741 and 1860 set but I am nopt going to chase those down, but I read a interesting fix that is untested on another cadillac forum in which I offered up my car as a guinea pig - back to the topic at hand.

I got into a accident with that car last year and the nose was redone, new radiator, condensor, etc. Looks like new valve cover gaskets and other new parts as the gaskets and parts look new. I stop off and get the testor at NAPA, but I am just wondering what made you think of my car after doing your car - what similarities? The corroided flush? My coolant wasnt red, it was just 'grainy' which I doubt that a flush was done when they put on the new nose and misc parts. The funny thing is I told my wife that while we bought this car to get us through the next couple of years (she was 100% againest buying a car with a 115K on it, she wanted to by a chevy cobalt or another little tin can, and I just dont fit in those, they raise hell on my back, and its about as comfortable for me to ride in a small car) I told her no way, I will put my money in the used caddy, or other big *smurf* car. I am not trying to impress anyone, but hey I like the way the car rides, drives, and I am GM through and through. Well make a long story short, after my mishap I told her that there are goign to be some bugs with the car and she's going to get 'tempermental' besides the fact that she still wonders why I call all cars 'she' and have named my Yukon and the Cadillac (she thinks its silly) because when you have a car with 128K (at the time of the accident) and you start putting new parts on it, there is always something that is going to happen eventually, so the short of the story is I lost my Yukon because the car started getting too 'tempermental' for her, and I got the Cadillac, which I wasnt happy about at first but it doesnt matter, the Caddy rides better then the Denali any day.

So I have always expected that whenever I do a major repair to any car there is going to be a couple 'bugs' that pop up after it's done, and now I have this on my DTC. The U1000 I think is because I finally have the wiring harness cdisconnected to the back door and have it ready to pull out the regulator and motor if needed, but its the plastic tab that snapped, just like my 2001 Aurora, so theres my U1000, but I am stratching my head on the 0410 air pump code. Why did it wait a week? I went well over 400 miles before it showed up, and since I literally flushed that engine and system from any place I could I am not surprised if I got water in the pump, but I have to wonder what causes it IF I DIDNT get water in the air pump and whats going on now, the only other I an say is the car has lost about 4 miles to the gallon (and I know that the TCC solenoid will do that, but this is after that code appeared, well after that code has been on. I have had those 2 codes since 4 months after buying it, so it's been 17 months with those 2 codes, I saw a nice fix in forum, but I am just not in the mood to do it right now, I have way too much on my plate - like we al do. The waterpump I had no choice and I couldnt drive it, the TCC and other problem I can nurse it as I have, I usually drive around in 3rd in the city and sometimes the light will stay off for days.

Thank you for you input Torque, I will test that for gases.

Anyone have any thoughts on the 0410 code for the air pump?

If I am going to do a post with pictures and a 'how to' on the gasket repair I did, shoudl I start a NEW thread or just continue it off of this on? I would have like to see one spelled out before I did it, I made so many trips to the parts store, and the dealer I could have saved 2 days (because I would have to wait for my wife to come home to get parts) if I had a complete parts list before hand, and someone pointed out (that we figured out here) that Chiltons describes the proceedure wrong, mixing up the ECT Pipe and EGR pipe - they tell you to 'disgard it - the EGR pipe' because of the crush fitting, and it's not the EGR pipe that has a crush fitting its the ECT conector, that was another wasted day at the cadillac dealer, so if someone gets through it and its useful information why not post it?

I am goign to look at a 2001 STS with a 157,000 thats being sold 'AS IS' NO AC, which is FL stinks, but the car is sharp, Pearl White, with tan, roof, all the toys nd it's short $$. The guy says he replaced the condensor, compressor, and some other stuff but stil cant get it to work and is sick of the car. So might have another project coming underway (my mom needs a car bad her is beyond my bility and checkbook).

A always would like to have everyone weigh in on what they think I might hve done and what the deal is with the new code. Is that the pump right next to the oil check stick?

Best as always

Paul

[Texas Jim]

If I was looking at a used Cadillac...

Probably the first thing I would do..."WITHOUT FAIL" is do the block test for exhaust gases...

Once I was satisfied that there were no gases in the coolant... then I would go forward...

[KHE]

The ECT pictures are 'kinda' in order, I tried to do a 'step by step' from the way it came from The Dealer Parts department, to what happens WHEN YOU REMOVE THE PIPE from the ECT connector (as in the original remove BEFORE getting the new ECT, then how the 'CRUSH FITTING' seperates (you ppush those 2 'Tabs' together and you pull the pip back and it seperats from the ECT ftting, but I DO NOT think that I have that picture in the correct order. This why I am second guessing the proceedure on installing the pipe, or mybe I am being paranoid, but I dont want to make a stupid mistake now because it would mean I would have to pullthe ECT connector, get another one, reinstall it (About 4 hrs of work because of where it is and you cannot put a wrench to it. I was lucky enough to have a big enough socket set & driver as that ECT connector takes a 1 1/8" socket and once you get it on (after starting by handof course you can literally only go 2 turns/click at a time.

If I push those 2 tabs together to remove the fitting fom the NEW ECT connector to mount it to the pipe, I might (I have no idea I would imagine I CRUSH the fittngs taking it out to place on the pipe that connects to the ECT). After you press those 2 side Tabs together, you then pull the pip out of the ECT cnnector (it's not a easy pull out, you need to force it) when it comes out, as shown in the photos it's in 2 pieces on the pipe, the 'CRUSH FITTING' has done its job and seperated the O RING that seats OVER the flange on the top of the pipe and seperated from the rest of the fitting. As the top ring has 'seperated' from the 'fitting' as a result of pushing the 2 tabs together.

Then I showed (not in the correct order I dont think which is why I wrote notes on the paper in the photos') what happens when you remove the fitting from the pipe ( you need to push the 2 release tabs over a flange to pull it out the actual hard pipe) and how it is now broken apart. To prep the pipe for installation you take whats left of the fittng and push the tabs outward now to move it ovr the pipe and off the flange (I do no think I put in a picture of the bare pipe & how its flanged).

I did my recreation with the OLD parts obviously, I look in the ECT connct, which is a pain because you need to use a mirror and get the angle just right and check to see if I had accidently sepeated the 'CRUSH' fitting while I was putting the NEW ECT CONNECTOR on as that piece is plastic and pretty delicate, it would snap out as designed with out much force, but I believe I could get it out with out breaking it, but I do not want to take the the chance and snap the O-ring seal!

I'm am probably just tired and not thinking right which is great to have a second opinion (or 3rd, etc) and post this, truth be told i I was rushing I probably would have pushed the two tabs together on the NEW ECT connector to remove the fitting and placed it over the pipe and not thought twice about it. But I can also see how I could do what I just mentioned and snap that seal, break the and seperatethe ring from the connector and screw myself (I am quite good at doing that).

For what it's worth I tink you leave it in, heres why:

Thats the way I got the part (Gm Number: 25689629

I looked up the part number and they are only sold together, yes it is aincrediable stupiddesign, and my first reaction would have been 'oh take this out of the ECT connector and put it one the pipe and insert it (which would have snaped the seal and it would have leaked like crazy)

I look at one on EBAY and it's exact the way I recieved mine, already inserted

I dont not believe that you can buy that CRUSH fitting/connector seperately, I couldnt get response yesterday when I went to the dealr on that, and in the diagram there is O-RING that is shown (and this is misleading to a point) but thats the rubber one that is already in there behind the CRUSH CONNECTOR - not the plastic onethat seperates as a result of pushing the tabs together to remove. Nw even though Chiltons, got this part wrong with identifiying the wrong part, they ID this as the EGR pipe and tell you to disgard it as it is NOT reusable, the EGR pipe also has a flange, but it is lock with a steel 'clip' that is held on by a 10mm nut, why would that item be 'unusable' - the dealer is the one whole told it ws reusable as I asked, thinking thta I was going to have to by 2 pipes, but your suppose to reinsert theEGR PIPE (usless you bend the flange with is really easy to do).

So - here is the link to the pictures on photobucket: http://s1095.photobucket.com/albums/i478/carjockey71/

Thank You for you help!!!!

I see you got it fixed but the piece you referr to as a crush fitting is available from most auto parts stores in the "Help" section. When I did the headgaskets on my '97 STS 5-1/2 years ago, I broke the one that connects the trans. cooler line to the radiator. GM only sold the complete fitting so I looked for it elsewhere.

[Carjockey71]

CaddyInfo Oldtimer - Ive been around cars my whole life, but as I said when I started this project it's been awhile and I haven't touched a Cadillac N* so I was a bit apprehensive on whether t go for the gasket change andreplace or totry to patc it, I am so glad Itoo the time and did the change. But where I got the idea about the 'crush fitting' is tht Chiltons describes the pipe, diagrams it's place but in there instructions for doing this job they state 'disregard pipe' as it's unusable. So first off they 'switched' te names of the two fittings / openings that literay sit on top of each other, the fitting I was referring to comes WITH the ETC connetor, not the pipe, so in th particualr case (accordng to spending another 4 hours oftrying to find ot hothis part worked) your supposed to leave the crush fitting inside the ETC (electronic temp control) Connector. Where I go all spin around and backwards was 1st the mis information byChiltons (I know I know I should have a real shop manual for the car, Ido for my Yukon, but this is the first time under the hood of the Cadillac) nd the reverse 'laeling' of the parts and descriptions, the 2nd t that spun me into aworld of doubt was when I bought the ne ECT Connector,it came with the crush fitting preinstalled. No box,no bag, the part guy just handed me the connector and I was off on my way (I couldnt find a auto shop that carried it) s I had no way of knowing if HE (the parts guy) put the ftting in, or if it came that way,and I decided to go with a new connector because when I removed the ECT pipe I pulled the o-ring gasket out as well, and GM does not sell those pieces sperately (the ETC Connector, the crush fitting or the o-rin gaket) and since I was tearing it down anyways I figured I might as well put all new parts in (the connector was $28) just as most of us have learned in one repair or another you just dont pu old parts back onto the car, because it always seems me when you try to save a buck and use a used part in a major job lik this, it bites you in the bottom somewhere dow the line and you find yourself wondering why you just didnt use all new parts from the start - at least that' MY experience.

So I get home with the connector, wound up getting wrapped up in other stuff, next day cmes for me to button it up and start flushing and I have no dea whether I am suppose to take the connector out (it seemd very delicate) and put it on the out pipe OR snap the pipe into place by inserting the connector. So after wasting a half a day trying to figure this out my wife asked me what was wrong, I tell her I dont know if I should pull this fitting out I think it's going to do what it's suppose to do and break once I apply a fair amount of pressure to the the tabs to pull it from the conector to put on the pipe. Of course she solves the problem in 45 seconds (I love her to the end o the earth but shedoent even know how to check the oil - she says it's a man's job) she says call the dealerhip. I was floored,I have been reading forums, searching, doing everything to get a idea of how this thing is suppose to go, anyways I call the parts guy and ask him if he put the cnnector in or did it come like that - he sas he only sees them come like that and he sees a lot of them. I tell him my problem, he gets a tech I tell the tech, the tech says 'DONT pull it from the connector or it will break and you'll be putting a new one in the minute you turn it over (it took me 2 hrs to getthis out, you can't get a wrench on it, I had to dig and find my big socket set 1 1/8",as I didnt tae the water pump housing completely out I moved it back to prep it an replace the 4 gaskets. So I would have really screwed up if I didnt ask, and wasting another 2 hrs under the hood, 30 mins to the dealer, etc.

But when I went to the parts store(s) NOBODY had the ETC connector, or the fitting - as I now know it's sold as on and why it's old like that.

This is going to sound really dumb, but when you guys talk about 'block gases' what exactly are you talking about - the head gaskets nd leakage/seepage? My oil is great, my coolant is great, I have some 'drips' underneath but there all around the pans and they are not too bad.

Do you guys think I screwed something up - how could gases get into the coolant? If it does test the coolant has gases in it - what does it mean? I have done a compression test on a coupl cyclinders but I did that when I initial checked out the car. I guess Iam getting lost with this - is this the cause and effect of my trouble coe p0410? I aw there is a TSB on thi for 2000-2003 where they get water in them, but it doesnt exlainhow or what damage it could or is doing? So I need to ask because Iam just 'not grasping' this partcular topic

Thanks and Best as always

Paul

PS Didnt get to the window tonight or go and look at the STS, got ted up with my 6 yr old (she's more fun anyways).

As always anyone is more then welcome to chime in about anything!

[Texas Jim]

I was not talking about YOUR car...

And the combustion my-product test has nothing to do with the code you have.

I was talking about if you went and looked at the STS you mentioned...

Before getting too serious about the STS, test the coolant reservoir for combustion by products.

That is a pretty good indication of if it has a blown head gasket.

You can rent the tester at NAPA or your local parts store.

It costs about 10 bucks for the fluid used for the test.

NorthStars very seldom put coolant in the oil, like other cars do when the head gasket is bad.

[Carjockey71]

Oh I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about the code I just got pcm 0410 - which is 'water in the air pump or secondary airpump ' I guess that's why I thought you were talking about my car, as if some gases leaked from the air pump into the cooling system. I went and looked ay the STS what a basket case, even for $2000. Found another interesting car though a 2000 DTS with a bad transmission. And a 115k looks sharp. Waiting for the owner to email me back, there's another black 2000 DTS that needs a lot of love with a title problem so its a parts car (the person has the title. But it's not in his name, I'm thinking divorce or something but who knows - don't want to get involved with that mess) if anyone is in the Bradenton -Tampa Florida area and your interested in these cars I can send you the info just email off forum. Carjockey71@yahoo.com and I will send you the stuff.

Sorry about that again - since I don't really understand the 'topic ' you guys were talking about with the gases in the coolant I thought you were recommending that I do that test which doesn't seem like a bad idea but I have to admit I'm still not getting what its for and why you do it, if you would. Be kind enough to explain it I would really appreciate the education.

Thanks

Paul

[Texas Jim]

OK... here goes... :)

The combustion by-products (exhaust gas) test is used to determine if it has a bad head gasket.

Anytime the NorthStar blows a head gasket, exhaust gets in the coolant.

It is even possible, in the early stages of head gasket failure, there are not many signs of problems.

But unless new coolant has just been added, one sure thing is exhaust gas in the coolant.

The test I mentioned is a way of finding out if the car you are looking at has a head gasket problem.

The years up thru 1999 are the worst at having head gasket problems..

The headbolts were redesigned in 2000 and again in 2004.

There are a lot less issues with head gasket failure in 2000 to 2003 and the problem is very rare (almost non existent) on 2004 and newer.

That is a very brief description of the test and what it is for.

10 bucks and a few minutes testing the coolant, could save you from buying a car that needs a $3,000+ dollar head gasket job done on it.

[Carjockey71]

Geez do I feel dumb! So basically you can go thru all the other 'tell tales ' of a head gasket on its way or. Blown, warped, etc., like milky oil, oil in the anitifreeze, but there is no way to 'fake ' a gas test, unless there's new coolant in the system. How long would it take for the gases to show in 'new ' coolant? Since that car (mine) has run hot so many times, and I don't have any of the other 'symptoms ' of a head gasket issue I think it would be worth the $25 to run the test on my coolant, but as you guys mentioned it wont show in new coolant - wouldn't it show in a compression test? You no double t would have to have SOME compression loss if the head was damaged even slightly?

Any thoughts on this P0410 trouble code I have? It is 'just one of those things that happens when you overhall the cooling system ' why didn't it show right away, like I originally mentioned it was almost 500 miles and 22 hrs of run time before the code came up. I know it only takes 2 ignition cycles back to back for a code to stick and while I can clear it it always comes back, always current and never in history. Do you think I'm thinking along the right lines that I probably got water in when I flushed it from ever hole I could find, and even back flushed it as much as I 'felt comfortable with ' the only other thing I can think of is that I have the bottom engine cover off and have as I have been spot checking for leaks - the other night we had a really bad rain storm and I might have got it wet that way. What do you guys think? Thanks for the lesson on the gas testing, I appreciate it.

Best

Paul

[Texas Jim]

Geez do I feel dumb! So basically you can go thru all the other 'tell tales ' of a head gasket on its way or. Blown, warped, etc., like milky oil, oil in the anitifreeze, but there is no way to 'fake ' a gas test, unless there's new coolant in the system. How long would it take for the gases to show in 'new ' coolant? Since that car (mine) has run hot so many times, and I don't have any of the other 'symptoms ' of a head gasket issue I think it would be worth the $25 to run the test on my coolant, but as you guys mentioned it wont show in new coolant - wouldn't it show in a compression test? You no double t would have to have SOME compression loss if the head was damaged even slightly?

Any thoughts on this P0410 trouble code I have? It is 'just one of those things that happens when you overhall the cooling system ' why didn't it show right away, like I originally mentioned it was almost 500 miles and 22 hrs of run time before the code came up. I know it only takes 2 ignition cycles back to back for a code to stick and while I can clear it it always comes back, always current and never in history. Do you think I'm thinking along the right lines that I probably got water in when I flushed it from ever hole I could find, and even back flushed it as much as I 'felt comfortable with ' the only other thing I can think of is that I have the bottom engine cover off and have as I have been spot checking for leaks -

the other night we had a really bad rain storm and I might have got it wet that way. What do you guys think? Thanks for the lesson on the gas testing, I appreciate it.

Best

Paul

Right there is where you probably got water in it.

As to the head gasket on the NorthStar...

It usually does not get water in the oil and it does not get oil in the water...

After a few miles of driving... especially if you crowd it some...the combustion gases will show in the coolant.

Yours had other problems in the cooling system.. if I remember right and you no longer have any overheating issues.

If there were no problems with 500 miles of driving... I doubt that you have an issue with the head gaskets.

But... it is cheap and easy to do the test... just for your own peace of mind...

[Carjockey71]

I think once I do the cotter pin fix on my back window, deal with the DTC P 0410 code and get the car buttoned up, I'll do the test, like you said for my own peace of kind. I haven't checked the fuse to see it that popped during the rain storm so I guess before I get all sideways about it I should do that, but I'm convinced it got water in it, especially with the flushing as I mentioned and the rain the other night. I might in the near future get adventurous and chase that solenoid on the TCC and follow one of the fixes I saw someone post in forum, basically just using a set of tin snips and riveting that piece back into place, but I'm going to chase down all the little things first. I don't have a garage just a Jack and Jack stands. I live in a deed restricted neighborhood so tearing the car apart in my driveway is a no no, I gotta clean my garage out. Anyways Thank you for the lesson, I'm just still baffled about the 0410 code. Is that the pump right next to the dipstick? There's s TSB on them for getting water I'm curious HOW that actually happens in 'a perfect world ' where the system is not exposed to water from doing a overall to the water pump housing, etc. How does it fail? I'm just full of dumb questions today aren't I?

Best & as always Thank you all for your input,

Paul

[Texas Jim]

As to how they get water in them...I am going to defer to someone that knows more about them than I do.

So far.. I have never had an issue with one of them... (knocking on wood)

Maybe Mike (BBF) will chime in...

[BodybyFisher]

Logan is familiar with the pump, and he has also stated that they get water in them, here is a thread by Patrick on how to replace it

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=37770&st=0&p=188041&hl=p0410&fromsearch=1entry188041

Here is Logans thread, he comments on water

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17529&st=0&p=124510&hl=p0410&fromsearch=1entry124510

This is a good thread on water from Logan and another member

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=36207&st=0&p=183963&hl=p0410&fromsearch=1entry183963