joeb Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 why does northstar have a 7.5qt capacity where almost all V8 motors from GM normally have 5qts? some northstars do not have oil coolers. so i assume those models are expected to be used in sedate conditions. going to church? in 1993, quite a few GM cars had V8 motors. did they have 5 to 5.5qt capacity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Several reasons. first, oil temperature is far higher than coolant temperature because much of the engine is oil-cooled: the pistons, the cams, the crankshaft, etc. In point of fact, only the heads and the tops if the cylinders benefit from water cooling. The more the oil, the lower the temperature spikes when the engine is stressed, like pulling a long steep grade at highway speeds. Also, more oil will serve the engine better with longer oil change intervals. As far as I know, just about all other GM cars have 4 quart oil capacities, more with the filter. The Corvette may have more. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonjaab Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 My 07 GM 6.0 truck takes 6 quarts with filter. Also my 72 Pontiac 400 takes 6 with filter (as did many older Pontiac v-8s). I still find myself mentioning that my Caddy 4.6 takes 8 with filter to the oil change guys. Too many times they only put in 5 !!!!!!!!! 93 DeVille-13 Chevy Impala 72 GTO - 77 Triumph Bonneville 84 Z-28 Syracuse NY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 The car will run fine with 5, but the CHECK OIL message is just a hill away. Most trucks above a quarter ton take six or seven quarts. My first "new" (only a year or two old) car was a 1959 Chevrolet "Texas Tornado" (car driven by traveling people in the plains, often 100,000 miles a year) and it had a 251 cid truck engine that took seven quarts with the filter, which I gradually figured out over the next couple of years. I won bets at filling stations on the East Coast on that point. Also, it would out-pull 260 Mustangs at passing speed and was no slouch around town either; everybody thought that, without the big "V" on the hood and rear of the car it was just a 235 cid six, probably with powerglide. I had three on the tree with overdrive. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted June 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 does a car with external oil cooler need extra capacity for plumbing? don't have block dimensions to compare to other style motors such a a LS motor. what is the distance from crank bottom to oil pan bottom? dont want crank whipping up oil. does a OHC motor keep more oil in head area during use? could be lots of factors that determine oil volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 The guru used to say that the NS could run on 5 quarts of oil. The reason for the additional oil was to prevent loss of oil pressure on high G turns. But as Jim said it will run on 5 quarts plus you will leak less if you have a case half issue. Here is description of the dry sump oil system in the corvette, it is used to stop air injestion, as the additional oil in the NS is used to stop the pickup from being exposed Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 By the way, is it any wonder that the Corvette could pick up air on high G turns, I see 1.6G turns here, look at this video of the Corvette ZR1 at Nurburgring, 183 in the long straightaway Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Want. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Want. Ditto Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted June 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 G numbers for production cars are set on a flat, skidpad. i bet the race tracks for the most part have banked turns which impart a downward motion as well as a sideways motion. i suppose it is like an airplane G number. pulling out of a steep dive gives big G numbers. but very little sideways G loads. what type of G loads does a nascar see on a big banked track like daytona? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 G numbers for production cars are set on a flat, skidpad. i bet the race tracks for the most part have banked turns which impart a downward motion as well as a sideways motion. i suppose it is like an airplane G number. pulling out of a steep dive gives big G numbers. but very little sideways G loads. what type of G loads does a nascar see on a big banked track like daytona? I forget what the guru said the NS was spec'd for in G's, I need to find that. But his attidude on oil level was, if you are not going to be pulled high G turns 5 quarts is fine. I always kept the TIP of my dip stick wet with oil. If the stick did not register, I added oil to the tip and checked oil weekly and never got the ADD OIL message. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 The Guru said that the Northstar was designed as a high performance engine and thus was built so that the the engine would not oil starve with a 1G lateral force on a skid pad, thus 7.5 quarts. That was the sole reason for 7.5 quarts. Nothing to do with lubrication (other than the aforementioned lack off) or temperatures. He also said that they ran them on a dyno with as little as 3 or 4 quarts. The ADD OIL message comes on just after the oil gets below the stick which is about 2 quarts low and far from the worry point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 12, 2011 Report Share Posted June 12, 2011 The Guru said that the Northstar was designed as a high performance engine and thus was built so that the the engine would not oil starve with a 1G lateral force on a skid pad, thus 7.5 quarts. That was the sole reason for 7.5 quarts. Nothing to do with lubrication (other than the aforementioned lack off) or temperatures. He also said that they ran them on a dyno with as little as 3 or 4 quarts. The ADD OIL message comes on just after the oil gets below the stick which is about 2 quarts low and far from the worry point. Thanks Ranger Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadillac Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Most auto companies through the years have adapted "street car" engines already in production for racing. It is my understanding that the Northstar was reverse engineered. As in it was initially built as a race engine and adapted to be a street car engine. So the larger oil capacity is one of the racing specific applications that stayed with the engine. Somebody can correct me if I am wrong Don "Modern warriors saddle iron horses of chrome." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 ....Somebody can correct me if I am wrong I will and you are. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Although the Northstar can be raced, my understanding is that the 7 quart capacity was so that the oil pump would be immersed with a 1.0 G turn, brake, acceleration, or any combination. That means that the engine can be tilted 45 degrees in any direction and the oil pump pickup will not be exposed. For racing applications, see http://www.chrfab.com and look at the 4.0 Liter Northstars that were used at Indianapolis for a couple of years. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northstar_engine_series#L47 -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted June 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 but the N* was designed for a FWD transverse application. the race motors went into various longitudinal installs. don't know where the oil pickup is in pan. will the pickup always suck oil in front and side 45 degree situations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 The base 1993-1999 Northstar design had little or nothing that was dedicated to transverse installation. For a plethora of RWD and 4WD installations, see http://www.chrfab.com, which does not transverse installations. In the 2006 time frame, a Corvette campaigned in sports car competitions in Europe using a Northstar engine. The bell housing bolt pattern is identical to that of the GM metric bell housing pattern except for one bolt near the starter, which is moved about one inch. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_bellhousing_patterns#Northstar_pattern The oil pickup is in the bottom front of the oil pan well, which is in the rear, as are most oil pans. Another point is that you will see a maximum of about 1 G in street use to the right, left, or front, but few engines can provide anything close to 1 G acceleration - but the Touring series will give you about half that at peak acceleration in low gear, about 30-40 mph. You won't have an oil pickup problem with a Northstar taken from a transverse installation and used in a longitudinal configuration. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 The oil "pump" is not submerged in the oil. It is attached to the crankshaft snout. That is why the dampener torque is so high and is critical. It is also the reason for the 16 qt fill if the check valve should stick open and loose it's prime. The additional 8 qts submerges the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 A small point, depending on your point of view, but The Guru also pointed out the matter of "customer acceptance." Since the Northstar "uses" oil, Cadillac knew it had to mitigate customer complaints of having to frequently add oil. In the end that fear proved well deserved. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadillac Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 ....Somebody can correct me if I am wrong I will and you are. Care to be a little more elaborate? Don "Modern warriors saddle iron horses of chrome." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 ....It is my understanding that the Northstar was reverse engineered. As in it was initially built as a race engine and adapted to be a street car engine. Not so with the Northstar system (the engine is only part of the deal; the entire drivetrain and suspension is involved). Back in the late 1980's the European and Asian automakers were eating the domestic carmaker's lunch with their high revving OHC engines in street driven vehicles. GM stepped up and the design objective of the Northstar powertrain group was to develop a "high performance" light weight, all aluminum, relatively low displacement, specifically for street driven 'performance' passenger vehicle powertrain. The Northstar was first sold to the public in the 1993 Cadillac Allante. The powertrain eventually migrated to other FWD Cadillacs as well as Oldsmobile, Pontiac, and Buick. Several variations of the basic design evolved over the years with smaller displacements including a (gasp) V6 version for some models of Oldsmobile. The street engine version of the Northstar 'engine' with the most torque (I'm not impressed by HP numbers) is Bruce's supercharged STS-V which is a 4.4L version. And that involved a few tweaks to convert to RWD. Whatever off-road racing applications have been developed are based on the original high performance DOHC street engine designed back in the late 1980s - early 1990's. Why the engineers decided the oil pump pickup must be submerged during 1G loads escapes me. Maybe they were all Steve McQueen "Bullitt" fans(?). One more historical note: the Northstar system components ceased production in July, 2010. Your last chance to buy a "new" Northstar equiped Cadillac is the 2011 DTS. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted June 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 hit 9% oil life yesterday. change oil message came on dash. reset it too 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted June 20, 2011 Report Share Posted June 20, 2011 hit 9% oil life yesterday. change oil message came on dash. reset it too 100%. Duh! Would you care to elaborate? As in; Did you change your oil? Or how about this, "I only had 3000 miles on the oil so I reset the OLM". You know, that type of thing. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted June 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 i reset olm message so i don't get warning every time i start car. have driven about 30 miles this week. will change oil this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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