Torque Converter Shudder 99 Deville

[BodybyFisher]

Or is it more of a smoother pulsation...maybe like an old man driving but not sure where he is going.

He gives it a little gas...then lets up a little...then gives it little gas again...then lets up again...

I never would have thought to describe it that way, but yes! hahaha

It's more or less what you described. Kind of a smooth surge. It isn't fast and it doesn't shake the car or anything. I guess I really messed up when I called it a "shudder." It's really tough putting motions into words, you know? "Bobing" or "gentle head banging" could be another couple ways to describe it.

Sorry I gave you a headache, Jim!

Not for nothing, but a smooth surge is not a 'fish bite'. A fish bite to me would be more like a shutter or a miss. But then you go on to say, gentle head banging or bobing....and to me banging and bobing are antonyms but that is me.. Here is a better description of shudder

What is Torque Converter Shudder?

Torque Converter Shudder occurs when the clutch inside the converter on an automatic transmission is being applied and the transition from slipping to locked up does not occur smoothly. The clutch locks up for a brief moment and then slips, or breaks away, because it could not hold enough torque to complete the lock up. The ability of the clutch to hold torque is the converter's torque capacity, which is a function of the oil pressure applied to the torque converter clutch combined with the friction characteristics of the oil and friction surfaces. This process of locking up and breaking away repeats itself rapidly, typically 30-50 times per second, until the engine RPMs are reduced and the clutch finally locks up. Torque Converter shudder can be both felt and heard as these rapid vibrations are transmitted to the drive line.

CUSTOMERS WILL OFTEN COMPLAIN about this shudder after a transmission service because the friction in the new fluid is different.

Credit >> http://www.lifeautom...s/default.asp#1

[93SixtySpecial]

Or is it more of a smoother pulsation...maybe like an old man driving but not sure where he is going.

He gives it a little gas...then lets up a little...then gives it little gas again...then lets up again...

I never would have thought to describe it that way, but yes! hahaha

It's more or less what you described. Kind of a smooth surge. It isn't fast and it doesn't shake the car or anything. I guess I really messed up when I called it a "shudder." It's really tough putting motions into words, you know? "Bobing" or "gentle head banging" could be another couple ways to describe it.

Sorry I gave you a headache, Jim!

Not for nothing, but a smooth surge is not a 'fish bite'. A fish bite to me would be more like a shutter or a miss. But then you go on to say, gentle head banging or bobing....and to me banging and bobing are antonyms but that is me.. Here is a better description of shudder

What is Torque Converter Shudder?

Torque Converter Shudder occurs when the clutch inside the converter on an automatic transmission is being applied and the transition from slipping to locked up does not occur smoothly. The clutch locks up for a brief moment and then slips, or breaks away, because it could not hold enough torque to complete the lock up. The ability of the clutch to hold torque is the converter's torque capacity, which is a function of the oil pressure applied to the torque converter clutch combined with the friction characteristics of the oil and friction surfaces. This process of locking up and breaking away repeats itself rapidly, typically 30-50 times per second, until the engine RPMs are reduced and the clutch finally locks up. Torque Converter shudder can be both felt and heard as these rapid vibrations are transmitted to the drive line.

CUSTOMERS WILL OFTEN COMPLAIN about this shudder after a transmission service because the friction in the new fluid is different.

Credit >> http://www.lifeautom...s/default.asp#1

Hmmm...I guess it wasn't a torque converter shudder all along. It is not anywhere near that fast. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 or so per second of the "surges."

My 92 C1500 had a torque converter shudder once when I was pulling my boat in overdrive. It was how you explained above, very fast vibrating motion. I should have known this wasn't the same. I just assumed that there could be different stages of failure.

[Texas Jim]

Hmmm...I guess it wasn't a torque converter shudder all along. It is not anywhere near that fast. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 or so per second of the "surges."

My 92 C1500 had a torque converter shudder once when I was pulling my boat in overdrive. It was how you explained above, very fast vibrating motion. I should have known this wasn't the same. I just assumed that there could be different stages of failure.

If it is 3 to 5 times a second... that's still pretty fast.

A second isn't very long... that would be one "SURGE" every 1/5th to 1/3rd of a second.

in my mind I was picturing it as a slower surge than 3 to 5 a second.

Let me think some more....

[93SixtySpecial]

Hmmm...I guess it wasn't a torque converter shudder all along. It is not anywhere near that fast. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 or so per second of the "surges."

My 92 C1500 had a torque converter shudder once when I was pulling my boat in overdrive. It was how you explained above, very fast vibrating motion. I should have known this wasn't the same. I just assumed that there could be different stages of failure.

If it is 3 to 5 times a second... that's still pretty fast.

A second isn't very long... that would be one "SURGE" every 1/5th to 1/3rd of a second.

in my mind I was picturing it as a slower surge than 3 to 5 a second.

Let me think some more....

Don't quote me on that time, I just did an educated guess.

[Texas Jim]

If it is 3 to 5 times a second... that's still pretty fast.

A second isn't very long... that would be one "SURGE" every 1/5th to 1/3rd of a second.

in my mind I was picturing it as a slower surge than 3 to 5 a second.

Let me think some more....

Don't quote me on that time, I just did an educated guess.

If it is that fast...and you only feel it above 40...that means it is more than likely a HARD MISS... and you feel it above 40, because that is when your torque converter is locked up.

When it is locked up, it is almost lie a standard shift transmission...in that there is no slippage between the engine and the transmission.

Thus... any miss will be noticed.

Now... to figure out what is causing it... if it is really a miss.

If it is a miss...it is odd that you don't have a P0300 code.

Have you went back and double checked the wires where they go on the plugs?

Just to "MAKE SURE" the boots are seated well?

Do you have any wires crossing each other at a 45 degree angle of less?

Any wires that cross, need to do so at a 90 degree angle...if possible.

This is to preclude any interference or inductance from one wire to another

Do you have any wires running side by side that are touching?

[93SixtySpecial]

If it is 3 to 5 times a second... that's still pretty fast.

A second isn't very long... that would be one "SURGE" every 1/5th to 1/3rd of a second.

in my mind I was picturing it as a slower surge than 3 to 5 a second.

Let me think some more....

Don't quote me on that time, I just did an educated guess.

If it is that fast...and you only feel it above 40...that means it is more than likely a HARD MISS... and you feel it above 40, because that is when your torque converter is locked up.

When it is locked up, it is almost lie a standard shift transmission...in that there is no slippage between the engine and the transmission.

Thus... any miss will be noticed.

Now... to figure out what is causing it... if it is really a miss.

If it is a miss...it is odd that you don't have a P0300 code.

Have you went back and double checked the wires where they go on the plugs?

Just to "MAKE SURE" the boots are seated well?

Do you have any wires crossing each other at a 45 degree angle of less?

Any wires that cross, need to do so at a 90 degree angle...if possible.

This is to preclude any interference or inductance from one wire to another

Do you have any wires running side by side that are touching?

Quiz time!

I feel it below 40 also, just whenever the torque converter locks up. For instance going up a hill around 34 the torque converter is locked up in 3rd. That is the easiest way for me to reproduce it.

I wouldn't describe it as a hard miss because it is too smooth. I have had misses before caused by wires and plugs and this feels nothing like that.

Imagine this if you will: you're walking down a path with a rope tied around your waste and someone keeps gently pulling on the rope very smoothly. That is sort of what it feels like. Man, I wish I could beam my car over so everyone could take her for a spin.

I don't beleive my wires are in any of those situations, I'll have to check once again tomorrow when I start ripping stuff apart.

[Texas Jim]

Quiz time!

I feel it below 40 also, just whenever the torque converter locks up. For instance going up a hill around 34 the torque converter is locked up in 3rd. That is the easiest way for me to reproduce it.

I wouldn't describe it as a hard miss because it is too smooth. I have had misses before caused by wires and plugs and this feels nothing like that.

Imagine this if you will: you're walking down a path with a rope tied around your waste and someone keeps gently pulling on the rope very smoothly. That is sort of what it feels like. Man, I wish I could beam my car over so everyone could take her for a spin.

I don't beleive my wires are in any of those situations, I'll have to check once again tomorrow when I start ripping stuff apart.

OK... if it is smooth... I am thinking it almost "HAS TO BE" a mixture problem / vacuum leak.

The mixture gets "OFF" for whatever reason... and the engine computer compensates for it.

That would explain it being a SMOOTH SURGE as opposed to being a HARD MISS.

Tomorrow try spraying the brake cleaner or starting fluid around the intake and especially the throttle body.

Some of the NorthStars have a rubber plenum between the throttle body and the intake.

They are known to crack and cause a vacuum leak.

I don't know if your car has the rubber plenum or not.

It is also barely possible that you have a bad injector.

Whatever it is...it isn't bad enough "YET" to throw a code.

I know no one wants codes... but a hint from the car sure would be helpful at this point.

[93SixtySpecial]

Quiz time!

I feel it below 40 also, just whenever the torque converter locks up. For instance going up a hill around 34 the torque converter is locked up in 3rd. That is the easiest way for me to reproduce it.

I wouldn't describe it as a hard miss because it is too smooth. I have had misses before caused by wires and plugs and this feels nothing like that.

Imagine this if you will: you're walking down a path with a rope tied around your waste and someone keeps gently pulling on the rope very smoothly. That is sort of what it feels like. Man, I wish I could beam my car over so everyone could take her for a spin.

I don't beleive my wires are in any of those situations, I'll have to check once again tomorrow when I start ripping stuff apart.

OK... if it is smooth... I am thinking it almost "HAS TO BE" a mixture problem / vacuum leak.

The mixture gets "OFF" for whatever reason... and the engine computer compensates for it.

That would explain it being a SMOOTH SURGE as opposed to being a HARD MISS.

Tomorrow try spraying the brake cleaner or starting fluid around the intake and especially the throttle body.

Some of the NorthStars have a rubber plenum between the throttle body and the intake.

They are known to crack and cause a vacuum leak.

I don't know if your car has the rubber plenum or not.

It is also barely possible that you have a bad injector.

I'm going to clean the EGR also. For a couple of reasons: one, it's never been done and probably should be done. And two, I can rule it out when I get it clean.

I'll check everything out that you said also. That thing is going to be layered in fluid tomorrow. Would carb cleaner work too? Or would that damage rubber hoses and such around where I'm spraying. I don't think I have brake cleaner or starting fluid.

Whatever it is...it isn't bad enough "YET" to throw a code.

I know no one wants codes... but a hint from the car sure would be helpful at this point.

You sure got that right!

[Texas Jim]

Dusty,

It is almost 12:30am here in Texas.

I have to get up at 6 to go to work.

Gonna call it a night.

We can continue tomorrow.

[93SixtySpecial]

Dusty,

It is almost 12:30am here in Texas.

I have to get up at 6 to go to work.

Gonna call it a night.

We can continue tomorrow.

Agreed. I'm in the same time zone as you and I'm getting very sleepy. I'll update you tomorrow with what I find.

[KHE]

Instead of brake cleaner, I was going to use starting fluid, but yeah I was going to spray around looking for leaks. It's obviously something minor. Keep in mind----it only does it when it's WARM (I will double check this tomorrow, but I'm sure it is)! That's why I'm kind of looking towards EGR.

BBF, I can't imagine how much that would be from the dealer, if they carry it anymore. Our Cadillac dealer was taken away when GM downsized, so the nearest one is 100 miles away. I wonder if gmpartsdirect.com would have it. That's definitely the pipe I was thinking of though.

Do not use starting fluid to check for vacuum leaks - it is very flammable and spraying it on a warm engine could cause a fire.

Any GM dealer can order the part for you - it does not need to be a Cadillac dealer.

[BodybyFisher]

If it is 3 to 5 times a second... that's still pretty fast.

A second isn't very long... that would be one "SURGE" every 1/5th to 1/3rd of a second.

in my mind I was picturing it as a slower surge than 3 to 5 a second.

Let me think some more....

Don't quote me on that time, I just did an educated guess.

If it is that fast...and you only feel it above 40...that means it is more than likely a HARD MISS... and you feel it above 40, because that is when your torque converter is locked up.

When it is locked up, it is almost lie a standard shift transmission...in that there is no slippage between the engine and the transmission.

Thus... any miss will be noticed.

Now... to figure out what is causing it... if it is really a miss.

If it is a miss...it is odd that you don't have a P0300 code.

Have you went back and double checked the wires where they go on the plugs?

Just to "MAKE SURE" the boots are seated well?

Do you have any wires crossing each other at a 45 degree angle of less?

Any wires that cross, need to do so at a 90 degree angle...if possible.

This is to preclude any interference or inductance from one wire to another

Do you have any wires running side by side that are touching?

Quiz time!

I feel it below 40 also, just whenever the torque converter locks up. For instance going up a hill around 34 the torque converter is locked up in 3rd. That is the easiest way for me to reproduce it.

I wouldn't describe it as a hard miss because it is too smooth. I have had misses before caused by wires and plugs and this feels nothing like that.

Imagine this if you will: you're walking down a path with a rope tied around your waste and someone keeps gently pulling on the rope very smoothly. That is sort of what it feels like. Man, I wish I could beam my car over so everyone could take her for a spin.

I don't beleive my wires are in any of those situations, I'll have to check once again tomorrow when I start ripping stuff apart.

Sounds like a "fish bite"

[93SixtySpecial]

Okay, so here is the scoop so far.

I cleaned the EGR and replaced the PCV. Doesn't seem to have changed anything so far. EGR seemed to be freely moving, but I did a nice clean job anyway.

However, I did find that the heat pipe that connects to the EGR, not the exhaust side, was able to be moved. I could grab the pipe and move it back and forth on what looks to be a pipe coming out of the EGR side. Is this normal? Or should it be tight? Can anyone verify this for me to see if this is normal?

I'm going to try spraying brake cleaner around places next to check for leaks.

[93SixtySpecial]

Okay, so I sprayed around and couldn't find any leaks. For kicks and giggles, I pulled off one of the vacuum lines and sprayed a little right in the line to see if it would change. The engine didn't idle up at all, no change. I guess I can't tell if there is a leak if it's not going to idle up when it sucks it in.

And another thing happened...I was driving around, had the car nice and warm and I started entering a freeway. I floored it on a hill and the check engine light came on. I thought, "Yay! Now I can figure out what it is." Nope, it was the infamous P0741... I don't know if that is related to the symptoms that I'm having of if it's just a coincidence.

Did you know, I test drove 8 Cadillacs before I bought this one and EVERY single one had that code? Why did GM not do anything about this? I mean, switch manufactures or something. Obviously it's a common problem.

[BodybyFisher]

Okay, so here is the scoop so far.

I cleaned the EGR and replaced the PCV. Doesn't seem to have changed anything so far. EGR seemed to be freely moving, but I did a nice clean job anyway.

However, I did find that the heat pipe that connects to the EGR, not the exhaust side, was able to be moved. I could grab the pipe and move it back and forth on what looks to be a pipe coming out of the EGR side. Is this normal? Or should it be tight? Can anyone verify this for me to see if this is normal?

I'm going to try spraying brake cleaner around places next to check for leaks.

No tighten it, if air is able to be sucked in, it will lean out the mixture, its not a heat pipe as I said, exhaust goes into the EGR through that pipe, if AIR goes in, it will lean out the mixture

[93SixtySpecial]

Okay, so here is the scoop so far.

I cleaned the EGR and replaced the PCV. Doesn't seem to have changed anything so far. EGR seemed to be freely moving, but I did a nice clean job anyway.

However, I did find that the heat pipe that connects to the EGR, not the exhaust side, was able to be moved. I could grab the pipe and move it back and forth on what looks to be a pipe coming out of the EGR side. Is this normal? Or should it be tight? Can anyone verify this for me to see if this is normal?

I'm going to try spraying brake cleaner around places next to check for leaks.

No tighten it, if air is able to be sucked in, it will lean out the mixture, its not a heat pipe as I said, exhaust goes into the EGR through that pipe, if AIR goes in, it will lean out the mixture

I can't tighten it, it seems to be a coiled, spring like pipe over another pipe. There is no way to tighten it, not that I could see. I think it's just a shield.

I forgot to mention that I put in some sea-foam and lucas fuel treatment in the tank, just in case it's a plugged injector or something.

It seems to be better. I'm not sure if the EGR was dirty and it fixed it or something was clogged. I did a couple of WOT last night to clean everything out. I can still tell it's a little bit there, but I hope it's gone. It could be that I didn't have it warm enough to do it also. I will let you know for sure tomorrow if it is gone.

[93SixtySpecial]

Nope, it's still there, but it doesn't seem to be as bad. Maybe it's my imagination.

[CarlaValentine]

Okay, so here is the scoop so far.

I cleaned the EGR and replaced the PCV. Doesn't seem to have changed anything so far. EGR seemed to be freely moving, but I did a nice clean job anyway.

However, I did find that the heat pipe that connects to the EGR, not the exhaust side, was able to be moved. I could grab the pipe and move it back and forth on what looks to be a pipe coming out of the EGR side. Is this normal? Or should it be tight? Can anyone verify this for me to see if this is normal?

I'm going to try spraying brake cleaner around places next to check for leaks.

No tighten it, if air is able to be sucked in, it will lean out the mixture, its not a heat pipe as I said, exhaust goes into the EGR through that pipe, if AIR goes in, it will lean out the mixture

I can't tighten it, it seems to be a coiled, spring like pipe over another pipe. There is no way to tighten it, not that I could see. I think it's just a shield.

I forgot to mention that I put in some sea-foam and lucas fuel treatment in the tank, just in case it's a plugged injector or something.

It seems to be better. I'm not sure if the EGR was dirty and it fixed it or something was clogged. I did a couple of WOT last night to clean everything out. I can still tell it's a little bit there, but I hope it's gone. It could be that I didn't have it warm enough to do it also. I will let you know for sure tomorrow if it is gone.

Whatever you do, DON'T put seafoam in your crankcase! I've heard more than once that it will cause leaks in places that you didn't know had places.

[BodybyFisher]

Sometimes I think communication here is LOST and misunderstood

Go back and look at the scan I posted on the EGR pipe, that scan is from a 99 service manual.

It is secured at the top with a single bolt and secured at the exhaust with a single fitting.... IT MUST BE TIGHT. THIS PIPE CAUSED KEN'S FISH BITE. IF IT IS LOOSE AT ALL, IT MUST BE TIGHTENED OR REPLACED, THERE IS A GASKET ALSO AT THE TOP.

AS I SAID EARLIER IF AIR IS SUCKED IN THROUGH THIS PIPE IT WILL CAUSE THE FISH BITE THAT KEN HAD, TIGHTEN OR REPLACE IT

DO NOT USE SEA FOAM OR INJECTOR CLEANER UNLESS YOU WANT MORE PROBLEMS. I HOPE YOUR GAS TANK IS FILLED, IF NOT FILL IT NOW TO DILUTE THAT CRAP YOU PUT IN THE TANK AND RUN IT OUT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE

[93SixtySpecial]

Sometimes I think communication here is LOST and misunderstood

Go back and look at the scan I posted on the EGR pipe, that scan is from a 99 service manual.

It is secured at the top with a single bolt and secured at the exhaust with a single fitting.... IT MUST BE TIGHT. THIS PIPE CAUSED KEN'S FISH BITE. IF IT IS LOOSE AT ALL, IT MUST BE TIGHTENED OR REPLACED, THERE IS A GASKET ALSO AT THE TOP.

AS I SAID EARLIER IF AIR IS SUCKED IN THROUGH THIS PIPE IT WILL CAUSE THE FISH BITE THAT KEN HAD, TIGHTEN OR REPLACE IT

DO NOT USE SEA FOAM OR INJECTOR CLEANER UNLESS YOU WANT MORE PROBLEMS. I HOPE YOUR GAS TANK IS FILLED, IF NOT FILL IT NOW TO DILUTE THAT CRAP YOU PUT IN THE TANK AND RUN IT OUT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE

Sorry it's been a while since I've been on here. I've been really busy and haven't had time to fiddle with this lately.

The pipe is secure, what I was talking about being loose was a heat shield tipe of hose on the actually pipe. It's not the pipe itself.

I would never put Seafoam in my crankcase. I have put seafoam in my gas in all my vehicles for a long time and have never had any adverse effects. Seafoam did not cause this problem because it was doing it long before I ever put any seafoam in the gas tank. I only used it on one tank and haven't used it since then.

The surge is still there. It seems to become a lot worse with when it is "wet" outside. When it's raiing and such. That kind of makes me think it's either spark plugs or wires.

BUT, I guess it could still be a gasket leaking somewhere because it always seems that engines run a little better when it's wet outside, so if it's getting "better" air, it will surge more.

I don't know I guess, I'm just throwing theories out there.