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1999 Deville, Seville, Eldorado, Aurora - RECALL - Campaign #99086


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Actually, running an engine full throttle for 300 hours straight is a lot more than mild abuse. The design robustness that supports this type of "duty" is called marine or aircraft duty, and very, very few automobile engines that were readily available in the showroom in cars that real people bought for daily drivers every had this type of certification. Among the very few that I know of are:

  • Flathead Chrysler straight 6 and straight 8, marine use.
  • Oldsmobile Rocket V8, up to 350 cid, marine use.
  • Big block Cadillac, marine use.
  • Iron Big block Chevrolet, marine use.
  • Aluminum big block Chevrolet, marine and aircraft use.
  • Northstar, marine use.
There are two areas of design where most automotive engines are just not required to meet the same standards as marine use, where sustained WOT operation at high or even maximum RPM, or aircraft use where supercharging and very high output is combined with extreme reliability requirements: engine cooling and oil flow and cooling. Most automotive engine blocks simply don't allow enough water flow to cool the engine for sustained WOT operation. Also, the pistons, rods, and valve train are oil cooled and those systems have a different mode of operation and a massive cooling and lubrication mission at sustained WOT operation.

I remember one very well-known 60's muscle car motor that went out of warranty if you ran it WOT for more than... 17 seconds. That was long enough to propel a car to a top speed of well over 150 mph, though, faster than the cars that it was put into would remain stable aerodynamically. You just didn't see that engine at the Bonneville Salt Flats.

There are other engines that can be used for marine use with heavy modification for that purpose. Look at the Mercruiser line and it looks like they are using SBC and a 496 cid version of the Chevrolet or other big block V8, but don't count on interchangeability of parts with automotive engines. Mercury makes their own engines. In fact, Mercury made some notable low-production engines for cars: the famous 426 hemi of Chrysler's, and the original 32-valve DOHC ZR-1 LT-5 engine for the Corvette from 1990 through 1993.

Most car engines are capable of being used for light marine duty, with horsepower and RPM limited so that the cooling and oiling systems aren't overtaxed. The line between these and the real McCoy is whether it is used in racing, etc. Also, World Castings makes blocks and heads that have better cooling that GM/Ford/Chrysler and are compatible with all other parts.

But running a production 300 hp Cadillac engine at WOT for 300 hours means that 67,000 kilowatt-hours were produced over 12.5 days, with about three times that dissipated as heat. These engines took it in stride, apparently without exception. They had the same head bolts as your engine and mine. This kind of bulletproof durability is one reason why it was used, in 4.0 liter form (Oldsmobile Aurora block) in Indianapolis cars for a few years.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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That kind of stress testing would have passed mechanical testing for durability, and probably certified by a mechanical engineer. I question if any kind of testing was performed by a metallurgist. Part of testing is to see what breaks the thing so you can at least understand it's weakest point. I would think adding a mild corrosive to the coolant, and letting the engine run for some time would have yielded some findings early on. Maybe it would it have shown the beginnings of corrosion on the HG threads.

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That being said, I guess neglect would have to be the biggest issue then. It's sad too. One would hope that upon buying such a lovely piece of machinery, people would take the time to go the extra little bit to take care of it.

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That 300 hour test is a durability test. The statement was made that because this engine had a +10:1 compression ratio that the bolts were not strong enough. I tend to think that this durability test would have turned that up and it gave their engineers confidence that the bolts were in fact strong enough. So much so that when they pulled they could only believe that it was due to coolant that had become acidic, which would be easy with the 2 year green coolant, enter, Dexcool... I am sure that if the bolts were not strong enough, they would have blown the heads off

I would love to know how much impact electrolysis has on the bolts, due to grounding or the lack there of. I have not had the heads off, does anyone know if there are ground straps between the heads and the block?

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That 300 hour test is a durability test. The statement was made that because this engine had a +10:1 compression ratio that the bolts were not strong enough. I tend to think that this durability test would have turned that up and it gave their engineers confidence that the bolts were in fact strong enough. So much so that when they pulled they could only believe that it was due to coolant that had become acidic, which would be easy with the 2 year green coolant, enter, Dexcool... I am sure that if the bolts were not strong enough, they would have blown the heads off

I would love to know how much impact electrolysis has on the bolts, due to grounding or the lack there of. I have not had the heads off, does anyone know if there are ground straps between the heads and the block?

Yep, I asked that same question in a post a short while back (Although I searched & couldn't find it).

Just like there is a heavy ground cable between the hot & cold water pipes of my gas fired hot water heater in my home. I believe this is something new.

When I once read an thread on this board about the aluminum around the threads turning to powder, I immediately thought of electrolysis too.

Dont know why, but I can just see the area around those bolts bubbling like an alka seltzer given the right conditions

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... I question if any kind of testing was performed by a metallurgist. Part of testing is to see what breaks the thing so you can at least understand it's weakest point. I would think adding a mild corrosive to the coolant, and letting the engine run for some time would have yielded some findings early on. Maybe it would it have shown the beginnings of corrosion on the HG threads.
The Northstar was developed by the same team that developed the HT4100/4500/4900, the Quad 4, the Quad OHC, and the LT-5 DOHC aluminum Corvette engine, the Shortstar, and the current DOHC V6 engines, among others. I think that questioning whether *any* kind of testing was done is not a strong position to take. I think it's more likely that there exist yield curves on head bolts torqued to stripping on a lot of blocks that were specifically made for destructive testing.

I wasn't here when the guru was posting, but I have seen references and quotes to answers of questions regarding corrosion in the head bolt wells, which seemed to me to be the most likely path to perdition on old Northstars. The quote was that the head bolt wells were sealed, as were the threads on the head bolts, specifically to prevent that problem.

Whenever Cadillac or GM gets any major assembly back on a warranty replacement it is examined to determine what caused the problem. This results in continuous improvement in replacement parts, designs, and such. It can also result in a recall, as in the alternator in the 1998 STS. Or, we can have a campaign to retrofit a complete series, as in no. 99086.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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That 300 hour test is a durability test. The statement was made that because this engine had a +10:1 compression ratio that the bolts were not strong enough. I tend to think that this durability test would have turned that up and it gave their engineers confidence that the bolts were in fact strong enough. So much so that when they pulled they could only believe that it was due to coolant that had become acidic, which would be easy with the 2 year green coolant, enter, Dexcool... I am sure that if the bolts were not strong enough, they would have blown the heads off

I would love to know how much impact electrolysis has on the bolts, due to grounding or the lack there of. I have not had the heads off, does anyone know if there are ground straps between the heads and the block?

Yep, I asked that same question in a post a short while back (Although I searched & couldn't find it).

Just like there is a heavy ground cable between the hot & cold water pipes of my gas fired hot water heater in my home. I believe this is something new.

When I once read an thread on this board about the aluminum around the threads turning to powder, I immediately thought of electrolysis too.

Dont know why, but I can just see the area around those bolts bubbling like an alka seltzer given the right conditions

hmmm...now that's a thought to ponder.

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  • 3 months later...

Service managers don't know everything, particularly about old campaigns. What you need is a listing or printout of the service bulletin, with the GM number, date, etc. If the dealer doesn't respond to that, call GM Customer Relations with your VIN number and the service bulletin handy and see what they say; they will call someone to the phone who knows what is what, or they will call you back.

Not so. I called first without the TSB in hand and was told my car was too old (1999). Second time I had TSB in hand and was again on hold for over 20 minutes only to be told my VIN was not on the list (wrong. I'm chewing my way up the food chain to get some satisfaction.

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  • 2 months later...

Service managers don't know everything, particularly about old campaigns. What you need is a listing or printout of the service bulletin, with the GM number, date, etc. If the dealer doesn't respond to that, call GM Customer Relations with your VIN number and the service bulletin handy and see what they say; they will call someone to the phone who knows what is what, or they will call you back.

Not so. I called first without the TSB in hand and was told my car was too old (1999). Second time I had TSB in hand and was again on hold for over 20 minutes only to be told my VIN was not on the list (wrong. I'm chewing my way up the food chain to get some satisfaction.

How is your meal up the food chain going? I just (as in today) became aware of Campaign # 99086, and my 99 Deville VIN falls into the range that someone else has posted on CaddyInfo. I tried calling the Canadian Cadillac number 888-446-200, mentioning Campaign 99086, and the agent I spoke to said that 99086 only references a procedure for identifying the problem, and nothing about GM offering to fix it. Possibly a tactic to dodge a bullet? I'm going to follow up with a local dealer.

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  • 1 month later...

Those number are irrelevant because there is not one car on their computer that is part of this campaign.

At that 800 number, I was on the phone with them for over an hour listening to non-stop BS.

My Cadillac VIN # Falls between the ones here.

SIGNING UP HERE TAKES 2 MINUTES. IF ANYONE ANYWHERE HAS GOT AN ENGINE FROM THIS CAMPAIGN, PLEASE WRITE HERE WITH YOUR VIN # AND ANY PROOF THAT YOU HAVE.

CADILLAC IS IN FOR A RUDE AWAKENING.

I NOT ONLY WILL NEVER BUY A CADILLAC AGAIN, BUT ONCE I GET ABOUT 20 PEOPLE THAT ALSO "AREN'T IN THEIR COMPUTER" BUT FALL WITHIN THE VIN #'S, THEY ARE GETTING A VISIT FROM MR. LAWYER. AND WE WILL ALL GET ENGINES.

PLEASE RESPOND IF YOU HAVE ANY ISSUES LIKE THIS. DENIAL. LIES. ETC.

THANK YOU AND SORRY ABOUT THE ALL CAPS.

To all 1999 Cadillac owners that are having leaking cylinder head gasket issues, Cadillac has a campaign for certain engines that could have had the cylinder head bolt holes drilled too deeply into the engine block, resulting in the cylinder head bolts loosening, losing clamping force, with the result being the cylinder head gaskets failing.

The campaign # is <u><b>99086</b></u>, dated March 19, 2002. I went through this with my own Cadillac and it doesn't matter if you are the original owner or not, as the campaign is for the car, not the original owner.

The potentially affected vehicles are listed below -

1999 Cadillac Seville - from VIN # - XU938976 - XU940640

1999 Cadillac Deville - from VIN # - XU791675 - XU802142

1999 Cadillac Eldorado - from VIN # - XU613134 - YX614972

I discovered this campaign using AllData.com auto repair software that you can purchase for about $30.00 from AllData.Com, or AutoZone. It has been extremely useful and I can highly recommend it.

For anyone with a 1999 Cadillac listed above, call Cadillac at the below phone number -

<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b> 1-800-458-8006</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

Your car will need to be brought in to a Cadillac dealer where they will test the engine to see if it is one of the affected engines. If it is, the campaign says the engine will be replaced at no charge and a loaner car provided while the repairs are being made.

I hope this is of help to anyone having this problem with their 1999 Cadillac. Now if Cadillac would only stand behind all the Northstar engines with blown cylinder head gaskets. I personally don't think threading steel cylinder head bolts into an aluminum block, (with the bolts eventually pulling out of the block), is a very good design, in my opinion. Steel is a harder metal than aluminum and I personally don't think it should have taken a rocket scientist to figure out that the steel cylinder head bolts would eventually pull out of the softer, aluminum metal, in my opinion. It just seems like common sense to me. In my opinion, the Northstar engine is earning a well deserved reputation for blowing cylinder head gaskets and with a Cadillac, General Motor's best, most luxurious car with very high prices for those cars, I personally don't think having cylinder head gaskets blowing in these engines is acceptable. I have met many people who wont buy a Cadillac because of all the reports of blown cylinder head gaskets with the Northstar engines. We aren't talking about an entry level economy car here, like a Cavalier, but a Cadillac for crying out loud. I have owned GM cars all my life and all of them have been great cars, but I am very disappointed with the Northstar engine in this regard. I'm afraid to drive the car out of town for fear of the cylinder head gaskets blowing. I think it's pretty sad that someone with an entry level economy car can have more enjoyment and less stress owning that car than someone with a supposed top of the line Cadillac, due to the cylinder head gasket issues. I wish Cadillac would ge their act together, build engines that don't blow cylinder head gaskets and take care of their customers who do have cylinder head gasket failures. <img src="http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad.gif" />

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Bruce, do we want Caddyinfo used to create a class action suit? This fellow is trying to do that on his first post, using caddyinfo. My initial reaction was to unapprove the above post, but I want to get your input here.

IF there IS in fact a campaign 99086 from 2002 and it is STILL in affect GM's regional customer service should be aware of it. In 2002, the 1999 was only 3 years old and STILL within the warrantee period, NOW?, a 99 is 11 years old. I doubt that this campaign is still active for the 99.

I would prefer that caddyinfo is NOT used to collect data and create a class action suit

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Old news really in terms of the campaign and I think it would only apply if the vehicles were in fact still under warranty, which they are not (now but where in 2002 back when this was of interest. In my opinion, the only people that win in class action suits are the suits (lawyers).

Old news, old topic. I'll close the thread since it is done.

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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Behind the scenes, Caddyinfo administration staff is being criticized by madeinamerica as heavy handed, childish and arrogant for closing this thread.

While it was nice that madeinamerica posted this campaign #99086, "for the benefit of all forum members", his original post which we did NOT comment on contained much negativity and misinformation that we ignored. Until now.

Truthfully madeinamerica's original post was heavy handed and arrogant because of these statements and contained misinformation disguised as opinion

Now if Cadillac would only stand behind all the Northstar engines with blown cylinder head gaskets. I personally don't think threading steel cylinder head bolts into an aluminum block, (with the bolts eventually pulling out of the block), is a very good design, in my opinion. Steel is a harder metal than aluminum and I personally don't think it should have taken a rocket scientist to figure out that the steel cylinder head bolts would eventually pull out of the softer, aluminum metal, in my opinion. It just seems like common sense to me. In my opinion, the Northstar engine is earning a well deserved reputation for blowing cylinder head gaskets and with a Cadillac, General Motor's best, most luxurious car with very high prices for those cars, I personally don't think having cylinder head gaskets blowing in these engines is acceptable. I have met many people who wont buy a Cadillac because of all the reports of blown cylinder head gaskets with the Northstar engines. We aren't talking about an entry level economy car here, like a Cavalier, but a Cadillac for crying out loud. I have owned GM cars all my life and all of them have been great cars, but I am very disappointed with the Northstar engine in this regard. I'm afraid to drive the car out of town for fear of the cylinder head gaskets blowing. I think it's pretty sad that someone with an entry level economy car can have more enjoyment and less stress owning that car than someone with a supposed top of the line Cadillac, due to the cylinder head gasket issues. I wish Cadillac would ge their act together, build engines that don't blow cylinder head gaskets and take care of their customers who do have cylinder head gasket failures. mad.gif

Does that sound like a member who is posting info on Campaign 99086 "for the benefit of all forum members" or one who has an axe to grind? And yet, we let it go and did not ban the post. I wonder what kind of material madeinamerica thinks the head bolts should be made of instead of steel?, aluminum? Does he realize that other manufactures also use steel bolts with aluminum engines? While he does state that his misinformation above is opinion, he is not an engineer, and yet we the administrators ALLOWED his original post, didn't we?, in spite of the fact that this is an Enthusiasts board.

Let me make this clear, this thread was CLOSED because of Post #35, that members FIRST post was a CAPPED, OFFTOPIC, negative, threatning, trouble making thread in an attempt to obtain new engines from GM, so the thread was closed. He chose the wrong forum for that garbage.

This is not a forum to air your frustrations or to create a class action suit, we are here to share information, and that was the reason the original post by madeinamerica was kept to provide info, in spite of his NEGATIVE statements.

Madeinamerica is not addressing his concerns with one of the administrators but with one of our members behind the scenes. All he needed to do was click my or Bruces name and click send PM. Madeinamerica seems to have a problem with me and goes on to call me a LIST of names. No doubt he dislikes me because his AMSOIL / OLM thread was closed also, he has become infamous for controversy and likes to try to dispel our beliefs learned from the GURU.

But most upsetting is this statement madeinamerica makes to one of our members:

But, since a heavy handed administrator, closed the thread, there is no way to make this information available for the benefit of all forum members, which is a tragic thing, especially since forums are exactly for the exchange of information and not closing threads to deny the exchange of said information. The v ery real specter of collusion seems to be a valid concern

MadeinAmerica states that WE are colluding with GM on this issue? How insulting! Be advised that, while this thread was CLOSED, members can still search it and the campaign info is still accessible!, its just that malcontents are unable to add to it. While it is easy to see madeinamerica is frustrated and angry right from the beginning, bashing me and or administrators is uncalled for.

I am going to call GM on this campaign to see if it is still active or if it has expired. I will report my findings. I realize that I come across as a bouncer here, but when members come here and make misinformation/disinformation, criticize GM or Cadillac, I and others remind them that this is an Enthusiasts forum and that cars don't last forever, either fix them or junk them.

madeinamerica, if you have something to say send a PM to Bruce or myself

.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I am on the phone with Cadillac, first problem, the customer service rep is in INDIA... and has a script and I was disconnected! laugh.gif

Ok here is the scoop, this was a RECALL for the above mentioned string of VIN numbers. THIS IS NOT due to head gasket failures from PULLED BOLTS, this is a recall due to a manufacture defect due to the head bolt holes not being drilled the proper depth.

This is a RECALL, and if you have a vehicle in this VIN number range, bring the VEHICLE into the dealer and have it inspected. If the dealer denies that this campaign exists, call the 800 number above, it took me all of 5 minutes to confirm this.

This thread IMPLIED that this was due to pulled head bolts, blamed the bolts, etc. This was a manufacturering defect, and as a result is part of a RECALL, and it will be honored as ALL recalls are.

I believe that IF you had a car in this VIN range and had the head gasket repaired, you may have a case to get reimbursed, but that is my opinion and can only be confirmed with Cadillac. I do not think that you can cart an engine into the dealer from the junk yard and get it replaced, laugh.gif nor can you go to a junk yard and find one and tow it into the dealer, laugh.gif

Take care and have a great day, biggrin.gif

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I have edited the title of this thread to more closely reflect the RECALL

Call GM for more information.

This is good info for someone who has a 99 in this range of VIN numbers, and there is plenty of info on this Campaign if you Google it, Thanks, Mike

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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