Anyone hear of this Northstar head gasket fix?

[CadVetteStang]

I called a car lot about a 98 Eldo touring coupe. The lot owner drives this car home daily. He said after a few miles he discovered it had a blown head gasket and had it fixed with a local engine rebuilder. He said he had the repair bill of $2,500. He said he has put 1,000 miles on the car with no troubles and uses that shop regularly.

I called the shop to see what they do to fix the head gaskets for $2500. They said that they leave the engine in the car, pull the heads off, and re-drill the block to accept larger head bolts. He claims that the shop has done ten Northstars that way and none have returned. I asked him if there would be any difference in labor price if I bought a car needing gaskets and we went with head studs in stead. He said the labor would be the same, but I would need to find out what head studs would fit it. If I go that rout, I’ll find out what replacement head bolts they use as a starting point.

I am new to the Northstar- I do not yet own one, but have always wanted a 95 up touring coupe as a daily driver and autocross racer.

I just now started learning about the cars and the head gasket problems. The shop that does those repairs does not think the Northstar is the right choice for me because I will be driving a 66 mile round trip seven days a week and do not have time to work on cars. They feel the Northstar is unreliable. However, I have seen several for sale with above 240,000 miles that have good running non-smoking engines. Those cars were at the price I could afford, but I don’t want to race a car with a quarter of million miles on it. I’m thinking of buying a nicer car with blown gaskets and using this shop to (or a mechanic friend) to perform this type of repair job if it will work. That will make hot rodding this car affordable. I don’t want to buy a car, use all of my budget, blow the gaskets and part it. I want to drive care free and blow away a few Mustangs and Trans Ams in autocross races. I want a motor strong enough I can put a mild performance cam in and drive for years.

I have the reliability I need now with my unfinished hot rod project: a 3680 lb. 1982 Eldorado with a TBI injected 472. I can overhaul that engine, put on some stiffer torsion bars, monster sway bars, and 17 X 9.5” Vette wheels, for less money than it would take to buy and repair a 95 up Touring coup, but I will get 5 MPGs less and will not look near as good (In my opinion). Should I build that car instead? Or will the Northstar hold up?

And finally, what is it with these “timing serts” I heard engine builders talk about? One builder at another shop said, “when you pull the heads, these timing serts fall down into the block and you can’t get them without pulling the motor. Then it takes a $10,000 tool to machine the block to hold a “fix kit” in place that corrects the problem.” He then said that all remanufactured Northstars have this “fix kit” installed and it is the 200,000+ mile engine it was designed to be.

Yet another builder said, “The problem with Northstars is that the head bolts pull up in the block over time causing the head gaskets to leak; it does not need to overheat or be driven hard for this to happen; that one out of four Northstars will blow gaskets at about 100,000 miles or so.”

With all of this new information, I am wondering that, IF the block is machined for bigger head bolts (or studs) will it still have the problem of those new bolts pulling up through the block, or will the larger diameter create enough “bite” in the block to prevent this? And what exactly is a “timing sert” and how does that effect the head gasket job? Would any of you be willing to risk $2500 on an “in car” head gasket job?

Cody

P.S. I wish gas was still cheap enough I could drive my 1970 Eldorado. It was the coolest car ever built.

[Bruce Nunnally]

I am not familiar with the 'just drill out the block and use big bolts" approach.

The approved method of thread repair on the Northstar engine is timeserts. See their website here for info and a video on the process.

Every engine eventually fails from something. Life: no one gets out alive. I disagree with the statement that 1/4 of Northstars will have head gasket/bolt issues. Our survey suggests a very small percentage do. I would expect that a repair shop would see that differently, since cars that are not broken do not come in for repairs.

My favorite for a relatively inexpensive Cadillac autocross car would be a 2004 Cadillac CTS-V. You can get a lot of engine and suspension aftermarket parts for those.

For a Oh-my-God-I-can't-believe-he-autocrossed-that experience, I would look for a 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham, which was like an Impala SS and had the LT1 engine.

UPDATE: Blog posting about Northstar Performance: http://caddyinfo.com/wordpress/?p=2010

[Ranger]

And what exactly is a “timing sert”

http://www.timesert.com

[CadVetteStang]

My favorite for a relatively inexpensive Cadillac autocross car would be a 2004 Cadillac CTS-V. You can get a lot of engine and suspension aftermarket parts for those.

For a Oh-my-God-I-can't-believe-he-autocrossed-that experience, I would look for a 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham, which was like an Impala SS and had the LT1 engine.

I'll look into the 2004 CTS and the 96 Fleetwood Brougham as possible alternatives - Thank you.

Is there a 2 door Caddy that shares parts with the Fleetwood like a Coupe Deville or something? I really like 2 door cars better...... But then again, they did make a Hurst with the 96 Fleetwood...... I could get some crowd reaction from that!

...... "Dude! Did you see that Hurst with the 20's? It- sounded like a 60's Vette and -like- out did two Mustangs in the turns!"

" No way, man."

"Dude, I -like- saw it."

"You're high, man."

[CadVetteStang]

I did some price checking and research. The Fleetwood is way to low on gas mileage and the 2004 CTS is way too high in price for my budget. The Eldorado is still in my sweet spot for price, handling and MPG. I may just do buildup on my 82 after all.

I also did some research on the Northstar. It seems 96-99 were more prone to head gasket failures. I’m not sure why 1995 was not listed as a problem year, but I did find out that there was a re-design in 2000 that fixed a lot of the head gasket problems. I did learn about timeserts and that’s what the 2000 up re-design delt with. I’m now trying to findout what price I can get a used 2000 “9” motor. I do not like what I have been finding out on the 96-98 block design.

Thank you for your help; if you can think of anything else, please post it.

Cody

[Bruce Nunnally]

You are looking for a 2000-2002 Cadillac Eldorado ETC then. Like an STS only 2-doors; FWD, Northstar V8.

I disagree that certain years of Northstars are more prone to head gasket failure; I think older cars are more prone to mechanical failures in general is all we are seeing so far.

[BodybyFisher]

This statement is such BS:

And finally, what is it with these “timing serts” I heard engine builders talk about? One builder at another shop said, “when you pull the heads, these timing serts fall down into the block and you can’t get them without pulling the motor. Then it takes a $10,000 tool to machine the block to hold a “fix kit” in place that corrects the problem.” He then said that all remanufactured Northstars have this “fix kit” installed and it is the 200,000+ mile engine it was designed to be.

Nearly everything in the above paragraph is dead wrong.

I have been around this board for 10 years or so, and I have never heard of anyone drilling and tapping, oversize holes in the block to accomodate larger bolts. What bolts do they use?, are they corrosion resistant (the factory bolts are treated to stop galvanic corrosion), and finally the factory bolts actually stretch when they are torqued correctly, are these replacement bolts designed to stretch and then the logical question is, how are the bolts torqued and what method is used?

Many do it yourselfers here have timeserted their engines successfully, using a $400 TIMESERT kit that was designed in conjunction with GM. In 2000 the Northstar bolts changed, and we see less head gasket problems with 2000+ NS's you might shot for a 2000+, especially if you plan on beating it, starting in 2000 they have roller CAMS. That said, look at what you said, "that one out of four Northstars will blow gaskets at about 100,000 miles or so" that means to me that 3 out of 4 DON'T!

I would not drill the block for oversize bolts and if I wanted a 93 to 99, I would find a low mileage vehicle, that you can get the maintenance records on, you want one that has had its COOLANT maintained and changed on or before schedule. These are great engines, but you will need to maintain them properly.

[BodybyFisher]

See this group

http://www.chrfab.com/

[BodybyFisher]

I did some price checking and research. The Fleetwood is way to low on gas mileage and the 2004 CTS is way too high in price for my budget. The Eldorado is still in my sweet spot for price, handling and MPG. I may just do buildup on my 82 after all.

I also did some research on the Northstar. It seems 96-99 were more prone to head gasket failures. I’m not sure why 1995 was not listed as a problem year, but I did find out that there was a re-design in 2000 that fixed a lot of the head gasket problems. I did learn about timeserts and that’s what the 2000 up re-design delt with. I’m now trying to findout what price I can get a used 2000 “9” motor. I do not like what I have been finding out on the 96-98 block design.

Thank you for your help; if you can think of anything else, please post it.

Cody

The re-design in 2000 did not have anything to do with timeserts at all. They used a beefier head bolt starting in 2000. What are you going to do with the 2000 engine?, you can not use a 2000 engine in a 93 to 99 if you were thinking about that. The 300 HP engines are much harder to find, than the 275 HP versions.

Again, you keep making statements that are harsh, we did a survey here and about 15% of NS's have needed headgaskets, that is NOT considered PRONE to head gaskets. You must keep in mind that if you are searching on the internet, you will find that you will find MORE negative information than you will POSITIVE information, its the nature of the internet, people that are thrilled with their NS don't come here to rave about it.

[CadVetteStang]

I do not intend to make “harsh statements” about the Northstar. I have always wanted a 95 up Eldo ETC and have have always been a Cadillac enthusiast. I’d like to give some background, even though its off subject, so that I can qualify my recent statements about the Northstar and the head gasket issue:

My First car was a 70 Eldorado. I drove it through high school and college. In 1986, the officials at the SCCA autocross in Fayetteville, Arkansas called my car, “the biggest and loudest car to ever compete in a sanctioned autocross event.” That year, I finished 5th out of 12 cars in my class (They ran 2 classes together because of a low turnout- and I was head to head with IROCs and Trans Ams.) And I finished 12th overall out of the 26 sports cars and hot rods that showed up. My fastest time beat the slowest three runs of an 84 Vette. I knocked off every Trans Am, Camaro, and all most all of the Mustangs--- all while running stock 15 X 6 wheels, 215/75 R 15 whitewall tires, a points ignition, rear shocks that did not work, and an exhaust system that had been cut off at the down pipes because of internal blockages.

Cadillac has been my car of choice every since I first opened a Chilton’s manual and started doing engine comparisons.

In 1996, I applied for permission to use the Cadillac name for a car club I was founding called The Cadillac Performance Association. This was going to be a performance, racing and restoration car club focusing on the 472/500 as the big block of choice and the Northstar as the small block of choice.

My first editorial for the first newsletter was my opinion that since Corvette was coming out with the C5, the C4 chassis should be picked up by Cadillac as the platform to create an Eldorado SS sport car. This idea pre-dated the XLR by many years. ( I have another story that deals with my Cadillac related concepts that I may post later ---- if anyone is interested.)

I was denied permission by the Cadillac licensing division, to make the Cadillac Performance Association into an official club, because I was planning to include non-Cadillac cars that were powered by Cadillac engines for performance purposes. I started to launch the club anyway under the name North Star 500, but could not get enough local support or networking hookups. (At the time I was a salvage yard manager making less than 30K per year and was also forming my film production company.) Eventually I did create a yahoo group named Cadillac Performance Association and it has averaged 500 members for the past six or seven years.

Cadillac and racing is in my blood, but unfortunately, money is not in my bank account. A tax return recently gave me $3,000 that I could spend to either get a 95 up Eldo, or re-build my 82 Eldo that has a knocking motor.

However, I was planning to finish my Cad 500 powered 1972 Mustang fastback project with C4 Corvette suspension, and had almost all of the details worked out, when I had discovered the car was stolen.

I really, really want a Northstar powered car, but I cannot afford to spend all of my money on one, and then park it as I have had to do with my other two Eldorados. While it is true that I make more money now than I ever have in my life, my wife is a breast cancer survivor and I have a lot of medical debt that offsets my much larger income. And as I mentioned earlier, I drive a 66 mile round trip seven days a week. I need to get as close to 30 MPGs as possible, and want something that will live through a few yearly runs through the autocross.

I was a believer in the Northstar until I started doing research on them. As of a few weeks ago I knew absolutely nothing about them except for some basic write-ups in performance magazines. I’ve got some experience working on the 500, and have done one head gasket job on that motor after a sticky thermostat gave me trouble one summer. I wanted to know why it cost so much to do a gasket job on a Northstar and find out if it was something I could handle myself if the situation ever came up.

ALL of my recent inquiries about the Northstar turned up negative comments from engine builders, repair shops, salvage yards and other Cadillac forums This thread was perhaps the most informative and most disturbing: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/north...ailure-fix.html

Maybe after reading it, you can understand my concern. If I spend $2,000 resurrecting my 82 Eldorado, I will have something that can win the antique class of the autocross races and get between 22 – 25 MPG depending on which transmission I use. However, if I spend my full $3,000 on a 95 up Eldo ETC, I will get a car of greater performance potential. But--- even if I DON’T race it--- will I break it and park it? Will I wish I had rebuilt the old 82? I don’t have the extra money to take a chance, and that’s why I’m leaning toward my old 82. However, if a head gasket job is something I can do myself with the $400 fix kit, or pay my mechanic a few hundred to take care of, then its not so much of a risk I could handle a $1,000 hit later on, but not a $5,000 repair.

So I’m not trying to be harsh about the Northstar….. I’m trying to be careful.

[BodybyFisher]

I appreciate you words, and I understand what you are saying. What I took exception to was the statement you made that they are PRONE to head gasket failures. Keep in mind that you can search this thread on Google now, and statements like that can cause mis-impressions about the engine. Its no question that you find problems, that is true, but if you do searches on ANY car you will find problems. Can one of the failure modes of the NS be it needing a head gasket, yes. Each engine and transmission has its Achilles heel. Keep in mind that even your contact said that it happens around 100K miles, not bad for a 32 valve 300 HP high performance engine that is only 281 cu in and winds out regularly to 6500 RPM. I try to put this into perspective, when I was I kid, when a car hit about 100K, it was junk in many ways. I have 116K on my 96, and it looks and rides not like a 12 year old car, but a new car, I marvel at how it rides at 70 even needing tires. The engine is outstanding still, yes it has a slight knock when its cold, and it leaks a little oil, but for the benefits received, I don't mind. Might my head gasket go any day, yep, and its scary for me to hear that it might not be coolant related, that is 'just happens' or can happen due to deterioration of the metal or a bad casting. My coolant has been changed many many times over the years, and I work to keep my cooling system up to spec at all times (that it holds pressure and the temperature ranges are normal), I think thats very important.

I think I said above, if you are going to buy one, know its history, and IF you can get the service records all the better. Bye one with as low a mileage as you can, change all the fluids and drive it. Hey, life is a risk, but you are mechanically inclined, and that will help. I knew nothing about the NS before I owned one, and constantly gave wrong advice on it because I owned a 4.9 and it was very different. We can help you learn the engine, quite a bit if you buy one. One of the designers of the Northstar Platform used to frequent this board and his knowledge and legacy is buried within the noggins of the old timers here, we can dispel many myths about this engine. The first thing I would do is to ignore, mechanics out there that don't know that they are bias, and YES I know that I am bias the other way, but I am trying to tell you the straight facts as I know them. It is a TERRIFIC engine, if you liked the 500, you'll love the NS. I have owned a 65 (429), 66 (429), 68 (472), 74 (500), 91 (4.9) and this 96 NS, and it's a direct line back to the 429. I will add that there is NOT much that you can improve relative to performance, as the guru once said all of the low hanging fruit has been picked. You can add CAI, free up the exhaust (the front crossover pipe is the gag). There was a high performance CAM set for sale recently by Mark, who turbo charged his NS and I think he was getting 480 HP at the wheels and ultimately determined that the tranny is not up to those types of stresses. We can link you to the CAMS and Mark also. You might want to look into those CAMS. Keep in mind that starting in 2000 the engine has many improvements, we have a link on that also..someplace.

I will find that poll we did and post a link to it.

I had a 74 Eldorado, that car could pull, it scared me,

[BodybyFisher]

Here are those CAMs that are for sale, send Mark a PM or Email if you are interested:

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18240

[BodybyFisher]

I have done a slew of valve jobs over the years on cast iron engines, I used to LOVE doing them, it restored the engine back to life. The Northstar is a transverse engine, that in itself creates a lot of the difficulty. Drilling out the rear heads for time serts while it has been done it is much easier with the engine out of the car. Dropping the engine carriage out is time consuming and not for the feint of heart. The feedback that I have seen, leads me to believe that pulling the engine out from the top is more difficult, than dropping the carriage. The second issue is, when the head gaskets are replaced, a proper repair involves time-serting the block, using new head bolts. If one were to simply use the old bolts without timeserting the block, the average survival time is 12 months. The third difficulty is that this is a 32 valve 4 OHC engine and it must be timed correctly, not especially difficult if the FSM is followed, but harder if the engine is not removed.

The engine has a top half and a bottom half, as it is split at the crank center line. There is a seal between the two halfs that, while you had the engine out, well, you would want to replace it, IF you had a leak, which they do. I would want to do it, because, the oil galley is sealed utilizing this seal also. This leak is referred to as the case half leak. Also, the rear main seal leaks and has been redesigned, you'd want to do that also.

All of these repairs add to the cost and time to fix it.

About a year ago, I 'tilted' my engine carriage to get into the side pan to replace the Input Speed Sensor, TCC and Pressure solenoids. Prior to that we were dropping the carriage down equally, the head gasket tech at my local dealer suggested tilting the engine to get into the side pan and he was right. I did a lot of other repairs like the crossover seals, radiator pipes behind the engine, lower control arm bushings, throttle body seals, O2 sensor and that was a hard job, I could not imagine the work involved with dropping the carriage. Still would like to do it one day however.

[CadVetteStang]

Thank you, I will be looking deeper into the links you have provided. I’m starting to lean toward a 2000 - 2002 Eldo ETC when I can afford one in a few years instead of buying a $2,500 1995 model because of the engine upgrades in 2000. I can re-build my 82 Eldo for now, and with the road racing suspension I’m putting under it (and the fact that the 8.5:1 compression 472 only weighs 35 lbs heavier than a Chevy 350 and puts out 500 lbs. of torque @ 3400 RPMs---- and that the car weighs about the same as a mid 90’s Vette) I can still have fun with a few Vettes in autocross races and embarace a few Cobra Mustangs at the drags.

However, I DID just find a Black 2000 Eldorado ETC for sale for $2,100

Only problem…….. 200,000 miles…..

I ran a history report on the VIN: No accidents, 3 owners

1st owner put 20,000 miles on it the first year as a lease car and sold it (had to interstate miles)

2nd averaged 28,500 miles per year for 4 years and sold it. (had to be interstate miles)

3rd owner averaged 20,000 miles per year for three years. (again, that had to be highway miles)

So what is better, a 1995 Eldo ETC with 126,000 miles for $2500

(That’s about the average price and mileage I’m finding now for sale)

Or 2000 Eldo ETC with 200,000 interstate miles for $2100?

It’s a tough call with my budget; I’m still thinking re-do the 82 and re-visit the 2000 Eldo idea when their prices depreciate a little more. Of course If I get a book published or land a good film investor, dropping 6K-9K on a nice 2000 model would be a no brainer.

Myspace.com/codygcarson