fivepointohman Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Hi everyone, I was told from a buddy of mine that it is possible to run regular green antifreeze in a northstar motor. What are the pro's and con's to doing so? I personally run dexcool in my 4.6L, my buddy has switched a few years back to green antifreeze. He had headgasket failure last week, and is having the motor rebiult this week. His motor had 87K original miles. Could the coolant swap have caused a failure or pre-mature? His car also had sat for a few years undriven, till he drove it this season and it blew immediatly. His 4.6L is a 1993 northstar. All thoughts and comments appreciated on this! Thanks Everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 There's no reason to run green coolant. I'm not sure why he switched, and I doubt that the head gasket failure was directly related to it, but it's hard to know if it would have still failed if he had kept Dex-Cool in it. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 A '93 Northstar had green coolant from the factory. DexCool was not introduced until the '96 model year. I recommend you keep running DexCool in your car. If you switch to green, you will need to change it every two years. Once green coolant is introduced into the cooling system, it will plate the internals with silicates. If you then switch back to Dex, the silicates will deplete the corrosion inhibitor package in the DexCool so you will need to change the DexCool every two years. Why anyone would install green coolant in a system that came from the factory with DexCool is beyond me... DexCool does not have silicates in it so water pump seals, etc will last longer due to the absence of the abrasive silicates. It is also good for 5 years/100,000 miles vs. 2 years/24,000 miles. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Hi everyone, I was told from a buddy of mine that it is possible to run regular green antifreeze in a northstar motor. What are the pro's and con's to doing so? I personally run dexcool in my 4.6L, my buddy has switched a few years back to green antifreeze. He had headgasket failure last week, and is having the motor rebiult this week. His motor had 87K original miles. Could the coolant swap have caused a failure or pre-mature? His car also had sat for a few years undriven, till he drove it this season and it blew immediatly. His 4.6L is a 1993 northstar. All thoughts and comments appreciated on this! Thanks Everyone! Your friends 93 was designed to run with GREEN, Dexcool was not used by GM till 96, so something is wrong with that story... Green needs changing every 2 years or 24K, Dexcool needs changing every 5 years or 100K Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 The fact that your friend's 93 sat for several years probably did more damage to the head gasket than the issue of dexcool or green coolant. However, KHE and BBF have stated the golden rules regarding coolant. When I reread your post I notice that it is somewhat implied that your friend at one time or another ran dexcool in his 93. If that is true and he assumed that since he had dexcool that he could then run it for 5yrs/100K miles.... well then it's not a stretch to figure out why he had a head gasket failure. And that's unfortunate. "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Why anyone would install green coolant in a system that came from the factory with DexCool is beyond me... When buying a used Northstar with the "orange stuff" in it you can never be sure that the "green stuff" hadn't at some time been introduced to the system. Safety pretty much requires you change the coolant every two years. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivepointohman Posted June 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Why anyone would install green coolant in a system that came from the factory with DexCool is beyond me... When buying a used Northstar with the "orange stuff" in it you can never be sure that the "green stuff" hadn't at some time been introduced to the system. Safety pretty much requires you change the coolant every two years. Regards, Warren I agree with all above, I went to a friends shop today and sure enough there was a 2001 caddy in there with a 4.6l getting new head gaskets.. I seen the block bare first hand, I also seen the studs stripped out of the block and how weak they really are.. rediculous.. It had green coolant in it, and it was corroded as can be in the water jackets etc. What I also saw was a 100K motor with factor hone patterns and hardly any wear on the cylinders... Remarkable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotmode Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 A '93 Northstar had green coolant from the factory. DexCool was not introduced until the '96 model year. I recommend you keep running DexCool in your car. If you switch to green, you will need to change it every two years. Once green coolant is introduced into the cooling system, it will plate the internals with silicates. If you then switch back to Dex, the silicates will deplete the corrosion inhibitor package in the DexCool so you will need to change the DexCool every two years. Why anyone would install green coolant in a system that came from the factory with DexCool is beyond me... DexCool does not have silicates in it so water pump seals, etc will last longer due to the absence of the abrasive silicates. It is also good for 5 years/100,000 miles vs. 2 years/24,000 miles. Google "dexcool class action lawsuit". Green coolant didn't cause head gasket failures. Torque to yield bolts and weak threads in the block blow head gaskets. The biggest coolant catastrophes I've seen involve dexcool with air in the system(a small leak causes system to run low for extended period of time because ignorant owner doesn't check fluid levels on a regular basis). Not uncommon to replace radiator, heater core, t-stat and radiator cap along with removing block drains, chisel gunk out so that the drain is open, chemically treat and back flush engine for hours. Come to think of it, this is the kind of gunk that plugs the bypass tube on N*'s, air locks and overheats engine which I'm sure is of no help to already weak threads and overstretched head bolts. I've been an ASE certified tech for 14 years and worked at GM dealers for the last 9. I've never seen green coolant sludge like dexcool. Not trying to be a smart a55, but that is why I use green coolant in my vehicles, including the ones that came with dexcool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 A '93 Northstar had green coolant from the factory. DexCool was not introduced until the '96 model year. I recommend you keep running DexCool in your car. If you switch to green, you will need to change it every two years. Once green coolant is introduced into the cooling system, it will plate the internals with silicates. If you then switch back to Dex, the silicates will deplete the corrosion inhibitor package in the DexCool so you will need to change the DexCool every two years. Why anyone would install green coolant in a system that came from the factory with DexCool is beyond me... DexCool does not have silicates in it so water pump seals, etc will last longer due to the absence of the abrasive silicates. It is also good for 5 years/100,000 miles vs. 2 years/24,000 miles. Google "dexcool class action lawsuit". Green coolant didn't cause head gasket failures. Torque to yield bolts and weak threads in the block blow head gaskets. The biggest coolant catastrophes I've seen involve dexcool with air in the system(a small leak causes system to run low for extended period of time because ignorant owner doesn't check fluid levels on a regular basis). Not uncommon to replace radiator, heater core, t-stat and radiator cap along with removing block drains, chisel gunk out so that the drain is open, chemically treat and back flush engine for hours. Come to think of it, this is the kind of gunk that plugs the bypass tube on N*'s, air locks and overheats engine which I'm sure is of no help to already weak threads and overstretched head bolts. I've been an ASE certified tech for 14 years and worked at GM dealers for the last 9. I've never seen green coolant sludge like dexcool. Not trying to be a smart a55, but that is why I use green coolant in my vehicles, including the ones that came with dexcool. It is my understanding the dexcool will sludge if it is used in cast iron applications. It was not designed for cast iron applications as it does not have or NEED rust inhibitors, once air gets into a cast iron system oxidation/rust occurs and that is your sludge. The rust inhibitors are not needed in aluminum applications as aluminum does not rust. The moral of the story is to not use dexcool in cast iron engines. Many of the purge/bleed lines are clogged with sealer that owners use when they begin experiencing overheating and coolant loss. The only thing I know is that every time that I open my cooling system (the last time at 98K miles) the dexcool coolant looks brand new, so go figure. I believe many of the problems with the head bolts come from the coolant not being changed at the recommended interval and the coolant becoming acidic. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 It is my understanding the dexcool will sludge if it is used in cast iron applications. It was not designed for cast iron applications as it does not have or NEED rust inhibitors, once air gets into a cast iron system oxidation/rust occurs and that is your sludge. The rust inhibitors are not needed in aluminum applications as aluminum does not rust. The moral of the story is to not use dexcool in cast iron engines. I wonder why GM puts it in EVERYTHING then? I have a 2006 Chevy van with the 4.3 V6. It is ALL CAST IRON. The 1999 van that burned in my garage fire last year...also had the CAST IRON 4.3 V6. Knock on wood... I have never had any trouble SO FAR... but I will be changing it more often than I have before. I shouldn't admit it, but I had never changed it on the 1999 van that burned. It had over 200,000 miles on it. It was still all original.... Original radiator and hoses... original heater hoses... original plugs and wires ..etc etc All I ever did to it was regular oil changes... put gas in it and drive it. I did replace the battery once and put a couple of sets of tires on it. It was in the shop exactly twice... Had to have a leaking vacumn hose replaced. When you started up a little hill... the AC would quit blowing thru the vents and blow thru the floor outlet. The other time, had to have an alternator replaced. I know... I should know better than neglect the maintainence.... but it was so trouble free... I was almost AFRAID to start messing with it. It it ain't broke.... DON'T FIX IT. Looking back.... I reckon I was extreamly lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 The Dex-Cool lawsuit was blown way out of proportion -- as most lawsuits in this country are. It's been pretty well demonstrated that the reason for the sludge in certain circumstances was due to leaking radiator caps. The caps leaked coolant, or allowed it to boil off, and the systems ran low. Owners didn't maintain the level. Then when a catostrophic failure happened, of course, it's somebody else's fault. GM was among the first to use a low/non silicated coolant formula, and that formula's gone unchanged (as far as I know) for over a decade now. Its performance is proven. So much so that other manufacturers (most in fact) have gone to a low/non silicated coolant as well. Again, its performance is proven. I'll use what GM recommends. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Good point Jim, I do not know why dexcool is used in cast iron engines, I am surprised to find that out.. It was my understanding that dexcool does not have rust inhibitors, I wonder if a separate rust inhibitor package that is compatible with dexcool is utilized at the factory fill? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotmode Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 A '93 Northstar had green coolant from the factory. DexCool was not introduced until the '96 model year. I recommend you keep running DexCool in your car. If you switch to green, you will need to change it every two years. Once green coolant is introduced into the cooling system, it will plate the internals with silicates. If you then switch back to Dex, the silicates will deplete the corrosion inhibitor package in the DexCool so you will need to change the DexCool every two years. Why anyone would install green coolant in a system that came from the factory with DexCool is beyond me... DexCool does not have silicates in it so water pump seals, etc will last longer due to the absence of the abrasive silicates. It is also good for 5 years/100,000 miles vs. 2 years/24,000 miles. Google "dexcool class action lawsuit". Green coolant didn't cause head gasket failures. Torque to yield bolts and weak threads in the block blow head gaskets. The biggest coolant catastrophes I've seen involve dexcool with air in the system(a small leak causes system to run low for extended period of time because ignorant owner doesn't check fluid levels on a regular basis). Not uncommon to replace radiator, heater core, t-stat and radiator cap along with removing block drains, chisel gunk out so that the drain is open, chemically treat and back flush engine for hours. Come to think of it, this is the kind of gunk that plugs the bypass tube on N*'s, air locks and overheats engine which I'm sure is of no help to already weak threads and overstretched head bolts. I've been an ASE certified tech for 14 years and worked at GM dealers for the last 9. I've never seen green coolant sludge like dexcool. Not trying to be a smart a55, but that is why I use green coolant in my vehicles, including the ones that came with dexcool. It is my understanding the dexcool will sludge if it is used in cast iron applications. It was not designed for cast iron applications as it does not have or NEED rust inhibitors, once air gets into a cast iron system oxidation/rust occurs and that is your sludge. The rust inhibitors are not needed in aluminum applications as aluminum does not rust. The moral of the story is to not use dexcool in cast iron engines. Many of the purge/bleed lines are clogged with sealer that owners use when they begin experiencing overheating and coolant loss. The only thing I know is that every time that I open my cooling system (the last time at 98K miles) the dexcool coolant looks brand new, so go figure. I believe many of the problems with the head bolts come from the coolant not being changed at the recommended interval and the coolant becoming acidic. I respectfully disagree about acidic coolant ruining head bolts. The bolts are sealed from coolant, so unless your block is porous, the head bolts don't get wet with coolant until the earliest stages of head gasket failure. At this point some combustion gases are also introduced into the cooling system which will make new coolant (dexcool or green) acidic in a hurry. Many times the head of the head bolt will be loose(like a long cross threaded bolt, it can be pushed and pulled side to side, but can't be turned by hand). I'm not sure if the torque to yield bolt looses its elasticity from thermal cycling, or if the block threads let go. Both coolants work equally as well as far as cooling the engine. Dex cool is supposed to last longer, but I don't trust it. Although I know better, sometimes I get lazy checking fluids. Sometimes there is a lot on your mind, like the good times to be had snowmobiling in the mountains or, on the other end of the spectrum, "I can't believe the old broad totaled my STS". Bottom line, I shouldn't have to worry about being down 2 quarts of coolant. With green, I don't worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 A '93 Northstar had green coolant from the factory. DexCool was not introduced until the '96 model year. I recommend you keep running DexCool in your car. If you switch to green, you will need to change it every two years. Once green coolant is introduced into the cooling system, it will plate the internals with silicates. If you then switch back to Dex, the silicates will deplete the corrosion inhibitor package in the DexCool so you will need to change the DexCool every two years. Why anyone would install green coolant in a system that came from the factory with DexCool is beyond me... DexCool does not have silicates in it so water pump seals, etc will last longer due to the absence of the abrasive silicates. It is also good for 5 years/100,000 miles vs. 2 years/24,000 miles. Google "dexcool class action lawsuit". Green coolant didn't cause head gasket failures. Torque to yield bolts and weak threads in the block blow head gaskets. The biggest coolant catastrophes I've seen involve dexcool with air in the system(a small leak causes system to run low for extended period of time because ignorant owner doesn't check fluid levels on a regular basis). Not uncommon to replace radiator, heater core, t-stat and radiator cap along with removing block drains, chisel gunk out so that the drain is open, chemically treat and back flush engine for hours. Come to think of it, this is the kind of gunk that plugs the bypass tube on N*'s, air locks and overheats engine which I'm sure is of no help to already weak threads and overstretched head bolts. I've been an ASE certified tech for 14 years and worked at GM dealers for the last 9. I've never seen green coolant sludge like dexcool. Not trying to be a smart a55, but that is why I use green coolant in my vehicles, including the ones that came with dexcool. It is my understanding the dexcool will sludge if it is used in cast iron applications. It was not designed for cast iron applications as it does not have or NEED rust inhibitors, once air gets into a cast iron system oxidation/rust occurs and that is your sludge. The rust inhibitors are not needed in aluminum applications as aluminum does not rust. The moral of the story is to not use dexcool in cast iron engines. Many of the purge/bleed lines are clogged with sealer that owners use when they begin experiencing overheating and coolant loss. The only thing I know is that every time that I open my cooling system (the last time at 98K miles) the dexcool coolant looks brand new, so go figure. I believe many of the problems with the head bolts come from the coolant not being changed at the recommended interval and the coolant becoming acidic. I respectfully disagree about acidic coolant ruining head bolts. The bolts are sealed from coolant, so unless your block is porous, the head bolts don't get wet with coolant until the earliest stages of head gasket failure. At this point some combustion gases are also introduced into the cooling system which will make new coolant (dexcool or green) acidic in a hurry. Many times the head of the head bolt will be loose(like a long cross threaded bolt, it can be pushed and pulled side to side, but can't be turned by hand). I'm not sure if the torque to yield bolt looses its elasticity from thermal cycling, or if the block threads let go. Both coolants work equally as well as far as cooling the engine. Dex cool is supposed to last longer, but I don't trust it. Although I know better, sometimes I get lazy checking fluids. Sometimes there is a lot on your mind, like the good times to be had snowmobiling in the mountains or, on the other end of the spectrum, "I can't believe the old broad totaled my STS". Bottom line, I shouldn't have to worry about being down 2 quarts of coolant. With green, I don't worry. The Northstar engine does not use "Torque to Yield" head bolts. The only reason the bolts must be replaced during a headgasket job is that the factory installed threadlocker cannot be applied properly in the field. Also, if there is any corrosion on the bolts from the poorly maintained cooling system, it is best to replace the bolts. The class action lawsuit based on the 4.3 Chevy engine has no bearing whatsoever on the Northstar engine. DexCool was developed to combat the effects of poor cooling system maintenance. For example, the owner doesn't change the green coolant in an older Northstar and the headgaskets fail due to lack of corrosion protection. The owner then blames the Northstar engine, GM and anyone/anything else for the failure when he should really look in th emirror for the real reason the gaskets failed. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 My statement comes from the guru who was a NS powertrain engineer. What I have begun to believe is that there might be more than one failure mode possible. I do believe that what the guru was stating was correct (we have no reason to doubt him, and they analysed NS's that had failed), that poor maintenance caused the coolant to become acidic, and it ate the head gasket causing coolant intrusion into the threads, deteriorating the threads causing the bolt threads to fail I don't believe that he ever spoke to the bolts stretching from thermal cycling. Nor do I believe he commented on what AJ has stated that the block aluminum material deteriorates or had a problem from the original casting. I wonder if the bolts PULL, and it appears that the bolts have been stretched from thermal cycling.. I suppose that there could be multiple failure modes Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Which ever antifreeze that your vehicle calls for, mix it with distilled water instead of tap water. Tap water has everything from chlorine to gypsum in it depending on where you are. Just because you can drink it, dosen't mean that it is good for your cooling system. If you use only distilled water with your anti-freeze, then you won't be adding substances that are detrimental to the cooling system. Take Care, Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotmode Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 I'll buy that. My car had better than recommended maintenance, and went farther than most on original head gaskets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Here is an interesting article, see OAT coolant. There is discussion of the coolant becoming acidic and electrolysis <a href="http://www.12v.org/maintenance/index.php?section=ss&ss=9" target="_blank">http://www.12v.org/maintenance/index.php?section=ss&ss=9</a> Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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